Quotes from "Autobiography of Ram Chandra"

From Elodie's blog: Pour Que Vive le Sahaj Marg: http://pourquevivelesahajmarg.blogspot.com/

SEE ALSO: Autobiography of Ram Chandra blog for more quotes and comments.

(Quotes (in blue)...comments (in black) by Christian, Phd psychologgy, 18 yrs abhyasi with Babuji, then Chari until 2006, then with RK Narayana's (Dr. Varadachari's son) ISRC)

From Babuji's Autobiography

Selected segments:

Everyone knows the writings of Babuji. The first volume of his autobiography was published during his lifetime and reports the events which have occurred between 1899 and 1932. Babuji was opposed to the publication of the continuation before his death. SRCMtm thus published a second book thereafter, a very reduced version of his autobiography. It is that one which we all know. S.P. Srivastava and the SRCM of Shahjahanpur also published another version, longer, comprising three volumes, between 1987 and 89.

Cri-cri delivered to us many extracts of this last version since last January. It appears important to to me that each one can take note of it. I thus allowed myself to gather all these quotations here, by favouring the chronological order over the thematic approach of Cri-cri. That gives a more "unstitched" character to the comments of Cri-cri - I hope that he will excuse me - but one thus finds the order of the original text.

I think that the entirety of the text is available from Navneet KUMAR Saxena, grandson of Babuji and current president of Shri RAM Chandra Mission of Shahjahanpur.

The quotations of Babuji are in blue and in italic, the comments are in black.

Elodie

The autobiography of RAM Chandra that I currently read is published by the SRCM Shahjahanpur, i.e. by the Indian faction of the SRCM, and not by SRCMtm (California) of Chari.

As you will be able to discover in the part of the Introduction reproduced below, neither the autobiography published by SRCMtm, nor the autobiography published by the SRCM (Shahjahanpur) are complete. The first would correspond to approximately 20% of the manuscript of Babuji, the second to the remaining 80%. You will also see that the Chari faction acts since the beginning by applying principles contrary to the lesson of the Master. (Introduction, pp. xiii-xiv), and one thus should not be surprised at today's result (divisions).

I am currently in possession of 4 volumes - rare and obtained by the purest of chance, which correspond to Part I (1 volume) and Part II (3 volumes) of the autobiography. The end of the 4th volume evokes a project of publication of a Part III, which is perhaps the publication in progress by the Shahjahanpur faction. I am unaware if Part I comprises more than one volume. It seems to be sufficient in itself, although there is a 13 years vacuum in the journal entries between the first two volumes.

This absence of 13 years, between the death of Lalaji and the preparation of the creation of the Mission, is evoked in the “Leading article notes” of the second volume, that I also partially reproduced below by Babuji himself:

p 238
"The things went on. They grew subtler and subtler, and almost indescribable. Every subtle state was waiting for a yet subtler one. (...) By the method of the Master I found new life everyday. I do not know whether "life" will be an exact exposition of my condition. So the diary remained silent for years together."

It therefore seems that I am in the possession of the complete document for the Parts I and II:

Part I: early life, adult life, at the feet of the Master, Journal (1928 - 1932) - vol 1 1899-1932 (2nd Ed 1980 1500 copies)

Part 2: Instructions et leçons spirituelles reçues de maitres
- vol 1 : 1944 May/Sep (1st Ed 1987 3000 copies) - Preparation
- vol 2 : 1944 Oct - 1945 Mar (1st Ed 1988 3000 copies) - Declaration
- vol 3 : 1945 Apr - 1955 Jun (1st Ed 1989 2000 copies) - Contribution

SP Srivastava decided to publish it after Babuji's death, in reaction to that published by Chari. The hostilities were really open. He (SPS) had obviously received full authority on behalf of Babuji to make the necessary changes. At this point in time it was noticed that SRCMtm was in a rush to publish the initial unrevised version to make sure that it was indeed their property with the copyrights. The autobiography of SRCMtm must probably contain Part I volume 1 in its entirety, which was published before the death of Babuji, then it is incomplete for the continuation. It is seen that for Srivastava also there was to be only one single successor to babuji. It is interesting to read that the others try to harm to him, i.e. the family of Lalaji, Chathurbuj, Thakur Singhji, etc Yes, but thereafter, all the names were withdraw from the text and replaced by a code “letter-number” to avoid this very controversy. One thus never knows who acts, and it is a pity because one would have seen more clearly. I hope to soon have access to the complete unaltered document, if Babuji's family wants to communicate it to us for research.

Vol I, 1899-1932, SRCM Shahjahanpur, oct. 1980, 2nd edition
This is not taken from the new release of Babuji's Autobiography edited by Babuji's son.

p1
"My father was Rai Bahadur Sri Badri Prasad, Honorary Special Magistrate I Class."
I don't know if it helps for determining if Babuji changed his name.

p13
Babuji meets his master Lalaji on the 3rd June 1922 for the first time. He adds:
"After coming back from my Master, I continued the practice, but not so deeply as I had to appear in the Matric and SSLC examination."
He had to pass this examination before starting to work. He got hired at the Court of Shahjahanpur on the 12th January 1925, therefore, after meeting his master. So, the precision that was given to me by the ISRC preceptor is wrong (my previous message on Elodie's blog, stating that Babuji met his master after starting his work at the Court, implying that he could not have changed his name for administrative reasons due to his work for the government).

p14
(I) "retired as Record Keeper in 1956. My Master, who served in the Collectorate of Fatehgarh, also retired as Record Keeper."
Babuji seems to emphasize the similarities between him and his master as something important. A cause for his choice of this job? A cause for changing his name?

p36 - 5th April 1928
"Dreamt in the night that I visited the holy shrine of Prophet Mohammad in Mecca. There I felt vibration at a point above the Trikuti or Cavernous Plexus and also a force of the same kind which had its link with the head."
Why is Babuji dreaming of the Prophet and traveling to Mecca?

p56 - Comment added by Babuji to his journal entry of the 17th January 1929 (autobiography commented on publication?)
"The ego gives you strength for all the work. It points out to you that you have got the power to do a certain thing. But we identify ego with the body, instead of with the soul. It is the production of God which you cannot annihilate. You should modify it."
Good to read that from Babuji himslef. Chari's SRCM has produced an obnubilation (alternate meaning) against the ego to such an extent that Chari's abhyasis simply lose an important focus. Ego is not something to destroy - obviously - but something to use to reach the goal. Chari's SRCM is misconceiving this spiritual aspect of the human system, therefore misleading people. The ego is a spiritual entity, the "production of God which you cannot annihilate".

I think that we have the answer to the question that everyone asks of “spiritually advanced” people who adopt a pathologically egotistic attitude, egoistic and egocentric.

If the traditional ego (of a person not practising spirituality) is centered on the body and the ego of a spiritual candidate is centered on the heart, it may also be that the ego - as for example that of a abhyasi of SRCMtm - is centered on the navel, i.e. neither the body nor the heart, but individuality.

It was the thesis which I defended initially on SRCMVEROLEE while detailing why the practices led people to be centered on themselves instead of being centered on the divine ONE

It becomes completely possible to obtain the kind of monstrosity which we could all observe in SRCMtm, and nothing more prevents such an ego from hypertrophying when the practices are not directed correctly.

For ME it is a small sentence which brings much sense to what I observed in the others and in ME.

Which means to say that this obnubilation of the abhyasis, the prefects and Chari on the ego is completely inadequate.

p73 - 15th August 1929
"There, a great Muslim divine was present along with another Saint and a personage. I did not recognize that personage. The great Muslim divine asked that personage to inspect my backbone. So my shirt was removed and the inspection was made. He seemed to be pleased with me. He remarked that the condition was very good, and there was some hint regarding the emotion of love which I bore for my Guru. He directed me to request the Mahatmaji Maharaj to pay special attention and to give special instruction to my humble self. I intimated Revered Lalaji Saheb accordingly. He also asked me to keep him informed regarding my condition. What he meant at that time seemed to me as if my humble self had been ordered by him to look towards him also."

Why is Babuji dreaming of a Muslim Saint? Who is this Saint? Is it Lalaji's Master?
This Saint is acting as if he was also supervising Babuji's spiritual training. It is a dream.

It seems that Babuji's preceptor was Rameshwar Prasad. I have noted that he rarely mentions him, at least in the beginning of his journal, the first mention appearing with a letter of Lalaji, and later, indirectly from Babuji himself.

p94 - Lalaji says to Babuji in a letter
"The love, companionship and affection of your preceptor is to be considered enough."
I find nowhere in Babuji's journal until that point, any reference to his preceptor - only dreams about Saints and Lalaji.

p117 - 10th March 1930
Funny!!
"Dreamt in the night that I was escorting my elder aunt to Lucknow. (...) From there I reached Kanpur. (...) On the same night, my wife dreamt that I had come back from Kanpur, had been attacked by a cow, and that I was dead."

p126
"The condition of other people there comes to my knowledge through the letters of your preceptor. (...) Your preceptor probably becomes nervous. He should be consoled. He is tender-hearted. (...)
Your well-wisher, RAM CHANDRA, (from Fatehgarh)"

Here, we can find a lot of references to Muslims in his dreams. Either he was strongly influenced by them in his everyday life, or he was strongly influenced by them through Lalaji's teaching. Whatever, they are here and they give him initiations. They are more present than Hinduist figures and yogis.

p123 - 26th March 1930
"Of its own accord the thought of Hazrat Mohammad dominated in the night, and the same thought continued when I woke up in the morning."

p130 - 2nd April 1930
"Dreamt in the night that I was inside a house with you, and a great Muslim. Saint was seatted in the courtyard. I sat down to the left of the Saint and noticed that a hand was shaking hands with him. (...) Then putting my hand on his palm he initiated me, and received two couplets which probably contained promise and commitment. The couplets were in Persian. (...) When I woke up, I felt that the hand which had been having a hand-shake with the great divine was that of Prophet Muhammad."

p131 - 6th April 1930
"The Preceptor, Pandit Rameshwar Prasad, and my maternal uncle were present there." (dream)
He does not say my, but if there were only 9 preceptors, we can suppose that it was his.

p159 Letter to the Master with diary for September 1930
"(...) This life of feelings has ended. Now there is neither meditation nor revelation."

13th December 1930
"At Fatehgarh I dreamt at about 4 in the morning that a Saint was sitting in my carriage and, without saying anything, he initiated me. Then he recited same Arabic verses and embraced me. (...)"

17th December 1930
"Dreamt in the night that I went to Mecca. (...) I moved forward to the place where the shrine of Hazrat Mohammad is located. The shrine was totally red in colour. The grave assumed the shape of Hazrat Mohammad, and it seemed as if he was reclining. Smiling he remarked that my condition was very subtle and he blessed me to attain betterment (...)."

p172 Letter from Lalaji to a preceptor (pp170-173)
"(...) Brother Ram Chandra undoubtedly has ability and agility in this respect, but I am sorry that due to the restrictions, of his father, norrowness of heart and space, and intricacies of his home my sagacity did not permit me for the time being to throw the responsability on him."
It seems that Babuji met Lalaji 4 times only.

The letter that Lalaji addressed to this preceptor contains some elements explaining why he had not promoted Babuji to preceptor, although he recognized his capacity.
I reproduce two extracts here of them.
Part I pp. 171-172
"(...) Circumstances and the pressure of exigencies do not permit me to act according to my wish. I will write whatever I can. It is enough if it is useful and beneficial, even though it is scanty. A hint suffices for the intelligent. (...)"
"So on my own behalf and on that of my elders I invite the attention of brother Pandit Rameshwar Prasad to agree to take up this work in hand during your absence. May God give him courage and perseverence. That dear one will, perhaps, establish a condition of honour after casting off that small portion of boyhood which is very negligible in him now, due to the demands of his age. May God help him. Brother Ram Chandra undoubtedly has ability and agility in this respect, but I am sorry that due to the restrictions, of his father, norrowness of heart and space, and intricacies of his home my sagacity did not permit me for the time being to throw the responsability on him. I hope from God that he will be benefited in a way better than the present one."

p191 - 18th February 1931
"(...) A voice from inside my heart told me that the man was telling me a lie since Hazrat Baqi Billah was giving transmission to me. (...)"
Hazrat Baqi Billah is the Sufi Saint who introduced Sufism in India.

p208 - 21st April 1931
"Dreamt in the night that you [Lalaji] and a Muslim saint were present at my house. You beckoned me to sit in meditation with the saint. So meditation was started. After same time I offered meals to the saint and I also partook of it with him. My mother was witnessing this. I withdrew my hand from the food so that she might not think that I had become converted."
Here, it is interesting to see that for a Hindu, there was a negative prejudice against Muslims. This could explain why the references to Islam have been later taken out and replaced with Hinduist mythology.

p219 - 26th July 1931
"Dreamt that I went into meditation, and was at the shrine of a Saint Hazrat Baqi Billah (...)."

How do you understand this sentence?
5th December 1931 p 229
"Dreamt in the night that a Saint was with me and the Great Muslim Divine picked me up on his lap and began to take of my shoes to seat me on his shoulders. (...)"

p 239
"The death means the oblivious state of mind which rejects all that is there".

p240
"After peace is Reality, so loving and embracing. We start with the cradle and rest in the grave. That is the whole life picture of the human life."

Introduction to the Second Part (Volume 1)

I found in: "The Autobiography of Ram Chandra" Part II Vol 1, in "Editorial note":
"The first entry in this second part of Revered Babuji's Autobiography is on 10-5-1944. This is preceded by a printed pamphlet or appeal in Urdu, in the name of "a servant of Revered Lalaji Saheb, belonging to Shahjahanpur", and was issued by Shri Madan Mohan Lal, who was the recognized preceptor of the system of Yogic training at Shahjahanpur, as propounded by and practised under the guidance of the Grand Master, and His real brother Shri Raghubar Dayal Ji of Kanpur, known as Chachaji or respected uncle."

I have no idea if this sentence means that Babuji is Shri Madan Mohan Lal, or if this personage is someone else. It is the first time that I hear about this name in the autobiography. I first thought that the preceptor in charge of the area where Babuji was living was Rameshwar Prasad. Of course, this Part II of the autobiography starts in May 1944, 12 years after the first book I have read. Another preceptor may have come to Shahjahanpur. So, it is possible that Dähnhardt could have made an error? Actually, Babuji was not recognized as a preceptor of Lalaji (or was he by his own disciples?). Also, it is no more a spiritual training that is delivered, but a "system of Yogic training".

Before continuing, I want to bring a clarification on the name of Babuji, because I ended up finding information. In Part II volume 1, Introduction of P Srivastava, p. II, Shri Madan Mohan Lal of Shahjahanpur, that Dähnhardt confused with Babuji, which led it to believe that Babuji had changed name, is actually an old tutor.
"The diary was submitted occasionally (generally once a month) with a short or long covering letter to Grand Master. There was only half a dozen letters (including one to the old preceptor Shri Madan Mohan Lal of Shahjahanpur) in reply from the Grand Master - the first dated 21-11-1929 (...) and the last rather long one dated 10-3-1931, five month before His physical veiling on 14/15-8-1931."

Part II Vol 1 - Publisher's note :
"The sons of Babuji are: Shri Umesh Chandra Saksena, Shri Sarvesh Chandra Saksena, Shri Prakash Chandra Saksena"
So I suppose that the last name is Chandra Saksena and Babuji was Ram Chandra Saksena?

Return to the introduction :
p. iii
"The main feature of this diary is a continuous chain of instructions and lessons from the physically departed Grand Master to provide initiative and direction, enough to end the hesitation and prepare to start the work in continuation of the tradition of the Grand Master's real job, as against the backdrop of the proliferating misguided efforts by several other persons in accordance with their own egoistic self-seeking motivations. After about five month of this initial preparatory period, Babuji starts receiving communications and instructions from many other Masters of yore of highest calibre; and work is started under the sole guidance of the departed Grand Master, laying down the foundations in accordance with the requirements of the present age and time, but in keeping with the basic tenets and subject matter of the heary tradition of Yogic Science developped through the ages."

p. iv
"Thereafter follows the description of the work of about ten years by way of the establishment of the organization known as Shri Ram Chandra Mission, Shahjahanpur; development of the system of Yogic Science (theory) and discipline (practice), designated as Sahaj Marg; and a huge amount of rather mystical work of Nature, about which only sketchy hints are available occacionally."

pp. v-vi
"His discovery of Mind region and Central region beyond Heart region (...) is epoch-making. His emphasis on the task and job of the teacher (Guru) as helper and servant of his pupil like a mother and much more; and the perfectioning of the technique of "transmission" for wide efficient use (...)."

p. vi
"The present series of volumes (...) brings forth one more very significant (...) contribution of the Master, viz. intercommunication with the physically departed capable Master, as the most essential condition and sign of somebody's capability and credential for carrying ahead the torch of spiritual training, in the real sense."
"Nobody during the Master's life-time was more conscious than He that it may all be a construction of a self-deluding prolific imagination; and He hesitated for almost fourteen years to start His work (...)."

pp. ix-x
"This story of eleven years (...), which may be read and enjoyed by some as a mythical lore in due course of time, has nevertheless the quality of a baffling profoundness for the wise that may care to seek."

p. x
"The reality and dream must play a sort of the game of hide and seek, in the life & character, under narration, ever available for the grasp yet always eluding the grip of every common man, as it must have been for the author as well."

pp. x-xi
"With passage of time fact and fiction get mixed up (...). This has a tendency to degrade the value of a biography, as an instrument of education in the proper sense, for posterity."

pp. xii-xiii
"The circumstances concerning the publication of this second part of Revered Shri Babuji's Autobiography have caused some heavy feeling to me personally. He felt reluctant to bring out many things contained in these diaries into the open for the knowledge of everybody; and spoke to certain people (but not to me) that it would be published after His physical veiling."

pp. xiii-xiv
"When I went to Shahjahanpur for a meeting of the Publication committee of S. R. C. Mission, at the end of June, 1982, Revered Babuji told me that He had cursorily looked into the [English] translation [original diaries in Urdu], submitted to Him, and decided that it was not to be published unless I approved it after going thoroughly through it. In the meeting also, brothers Sarnad and Raizada informed me of Revered Master's decision, desiring me to do the needful as early as possible. I told them that I would need time to go through it thoroughly. Then Revered Shri Babuji went to and returned from Paris; and passed out of His physical existence after a prolonged illness of about eight months.
Thereafter I obtained a copy of that translation from brother J. R. K. Raizada, Secretary to the President, and Superintendent of the Publication Department, of S. R. C. Mission, Shahjahanpur, at the time; and went through it during my first visit to Europe (September-October, 1983). On return to India, I requested the family of Revered Master to make the Urdu manuscript accessible to me, to which request they acceded. On going through the diaries in the original, the translation appeared to me very inadequate and rather jejune. Perhaps, it was prepared for publication during the life-time of the author, omitting such contents as were considered unsuitable to be brought to light for one or the other reason. To me personally, however, it appeared unjust and unreasonable to drop out about eighty percent of the material, even as a posthumous publication. Some aspects which were rather mystical or capable of arousing some controversies, may probably be held back [it is therefore possible that a part of the published autobiography has been censured]. When, however, the translation under reference was published from Madras [the "spirit" or dirtiness of Chari's group seems to be there from the very begining], without making any reference to me, in contravention of the express instructions of Revered Shri Babuji after having a cursory glance through that translation, I was left with no choice or judgement of my own to drop out some portions in my new translation of the text of the manuscript. I felt somewhat disinclined to the point of even disgust at the developping circumstances. However, there cannot be two opinions or attitudes for me in the matter of attachment or discharge of responsability to Revered Shri Babuji. (...) In consequence, the manuscript of the diaries is coming to be translated and published, as it is, without curtailment [would finally mean that the aspects "mystical or capable of arousing some controversies" were finally included?], except where expressly prohibited [parts published by SRCMtm?], with occasional notes and explanation, in case of need to make the meaning clear. The publication of the entire text is bound to take its own time (...) [whatever, the texts published actually by the two SRCMs are both incomplete]."
Therefore, the SRCMtm version of the autobiography of Babuji is incomplete (approximately 20% original text), just as that published by the SRCM Shahjahanpur (approximately 80% of the original text), both being supplemented roughly.

Finally, I reproduce here the: EDITORIAL NOTE", p. xvi.
"Part Two of the Autobiography of Revered Shri Babuji starts about a little less (a few months) than thirteen years after the physical passing away of Shri Babuji's spiritual guide and Master (...). During this period of about thirteen years inner training for the work ahead, as well as some work in a sort of dormant oblivious state went on. In the first place Shri Babuji's intercommunication with His Master beyond material limitations continued, even though its open external expression remained suspended for certain practical considerations. Some persons, physically and socially close to Revered Lalaji, had claimed to be His representative and successor, and they were trying somewhat deliberately to harm and even do away with the physical existence of Grand Master's real representative in every possible way, including the use of certain spiritual techniques. Some other quite well advanced disciples of the Grand Master, being averse to the false claims due to obvious lack of real effect, had started setting up organisations more or less in allegiance to the Grand Master, but centred mainly around these so-called advanced disciples as visible personalities to guide the multitudes attached to them on the age-old path of spirituality, as brought to them by the Grand Master, who had passed out of physical existence on August 14/15 (midnight), 1931. The visible work of Revered Babuji started taking concrete shape in the summer season of 1944."


Part 2 - volume 1

They highlight a threat on Babuji, although this one appears completely as fantasy at first sight. In a spiritual design of the world, the beings influence one another positively and negatively, but what is more surprising, it is that even advanced people would have this capacity and this sinister will to influence others negatively. It gives me a "cold on the shoulder", when I think that one puts one's heart in the hands of people like the prefects and the preceptors.

In addition, certain sentences reveal a surprising design of the management of the conflicts (absence of pity, does not forgive, fight, etc), whereas one imagines spiritual Masters full of love, able to solve conflicts by their light. I include/understand better, also, why these texts, initially, were not to be published. They reveal such an amount of humanity. I appreciate the courage of those which made the decision to publish them nevertheless.

Lastly, certain passages stress the transmission of the "torch", but also on filiation since the Lalaji's master. At this stage, there is thus no reason for this information to disappeared from circulation as it did.

pp. 7-8 18 May 1944
"When you have given your heart to someone, you have to receive that person's benedictory or accursed gifts to you."
We receive good and/or bad from the one we give our heart to.

"About you, he had the hint that there was possibility of you clash with him sometime. He did not like you coming to me. When all other means were unsuccessful, prayers were offered to your Revered Grand Master that you may be kept devoid of spiritual progress. This was very much disliked by Him and this became the cause of His displeasure. An attempt was made for cancellation of your initiation; and stories were narrated to you. Action against him had to be taken in accordance with the permission of the Grand Master. Do go to His Samadhi, when conveninent. (...) You were induced through thought to sexual indulgence. Where there was no success by any means, images of naked women were thrust into your heart. (...) A woman and you were taken in thought, as copulating, so that you commit such act. This was his last attempt to degrade you. (...) He tried so much to pull you down, and it never occurred to his mind that God's will alone triumphs ultimately. The matters have been brought to your knowledge, so that you may not be moved to feel mercy."
Ahidden enemy of Babuji. His name is not revealed.

pp. 9-10 19th May 1944
"I shall feel relief when you shall take over the responsability."
Transmission of the torch to Babuji.

"When your diary was put forth for publication, your name was excluded from it. (...) They were apprehensive that people may become inclined to you, and they may lose their source of livelihood."
"I kept you concealed in my heart, and did not let anybody suspect it. Only R got and has the idea, because he was connected to my state (...). I had consideration for his poverty, and hence structured a status for him. So he started living like a man of status. Greed was increased and God was totally forgotten. (...) At R's place money was wasted for pleasure and luxury. (...) There was no consideration for the poor. Rich people were given consideration."
About the hidden enemies of Babuji.

"Have consideration for my old age."
Incompréhensible to me: Lalaji is dead. It would seem to be a representation of Lalaji, in the mind of Babuji, who is speaking to him?

p12 20th May 1944
"Somebody may shower thousands of abuse on you, but you have to tolerate that. This means that if someone abuses you, you can also abuse in return, and even hit back and strike, but never wish anything ill for that person from your heart (...) If occasion demands, there is no harm even in having an armed conflict. (...) To give protection to an innocent victim of tyrany is duty. You have to take out the sword at the hour of need, even then there is nothing wrong."
It is necessary to defend oneself pitilessly when necessary. I admit it, conceive it, but I practice it with much difficulty because I often lack the courage. It is always easy to portray oneself as being tolerant when one is in truth a "pushover". In any case it is far from teaching the Judeo-Christian of the modern SRCMtm, which does not even support internal criticism.

pp. 14-18 22nd May 1944
"They are trying to upset your mind."
The enemies.

"You considered even theft and robbery for me as right."
Extreme and immoral. Surprising.

"possibly, M may come to you, even though there is little hope for this. Do not pardon him, only avoid doing anything, in such eventuality."
"Shahjahanpur will be the Centre. Light will be reaching everybody from here."
"You are still so young. You have achieved at such a young age what could not be the lot of so many great and high personalities."
"The powers of ennemies are weakened. Now they can do no harm to you."
"I am merged in you, and hence remain dependent on Him [Lalaji's Master] alone in every matter. He loves you."
Transmission of the torch.

22 May 1944 p.18
"My Revered Master was the best example of courage. Now I am getting aside; and He Himself will instruct you. I have obtained His promise from Him. Now treat Him as all in all. He alone shall help you. I am merged in you; and hence remain dependent on Him alone in every matter. He loves you. The recommandation for your training came first from Him; and this had come during my life-time itself."
Lalaji says to Babuji that his master is now in charge of Babuji.

"The Great Grand Master arrived and said: "I have spoken to A1. I have made you fully perfect. Your Master's name will shine thought you. People will be wondering. He then went away."
Here, it is difficult to know if Great is a word to express respect regarding the master of Lalaji (the "Grand Master"), or if Babuji is talking about the master of Lalaji's master.

p20
"There is no harm in giving benefit to him. But do not commit mistakes like me in bestowing power. Power shall remain only in one; benefit will go to everybody."

p21
"The intense feeling that was pumped into him (R2) was designed to make R2 smear his hands with you blood; but I took care not to let this come to happen. The anointment has been performed by drawing out blood from your body, so that the anointed person (R2) may assassinate the same person, whose blood has been used for anointment. For this job, R2 appeared the fittest tool for them."
Attempted murder or Black Magic? Of the Abhyasis?

p22
"When you stayed at K.., M3 intended to administer poison to you; but I was not allowing this thought to be fixed in his mind."
"One day something was even administered to you in your meal. The purpose was to cause upsetting of your mind; but I digested it totally. You were feeling only nausea and vertigo. The drug was mixed with potatoes."
"One (chief) purpose of administering this drug, referred to the fact that you were never without my remembrance. So this drug was used to force your mind to give up adsorption in my remembrance to allow him (N1) to snatch away (your spiritual condition and capacity)."
No, it is not an attempted murder, but an attempt at physical and mental weakening so as to attack spiritually. Is this reality, delirious, common practice in the Indian society?

25th May 1944 p22
"Revelation converging the vision revealed to R2 January 15, 1943 at 8 pm when he saw two fingers in meditational state (...): "That was meant to reveal to him that there were to be two personalities, viz. Babu Ram Chandra and Madan Mohan Lala."
Does it means 2 personalities in the same, meaning that Babuji is Madan Mohan Lala, or two persons taking on the work after Lalaji? This conflicts with the previous statement of Lalaji about power (only for one at a time).

30th May 1944 p26
"Start the organization. Begin attracting people to yourself."

31th May 1944 p28
"You can use that particular weapon in cleaning but not in transmission."

1st June 1944 p28
"R2 was attempted to be developped as your assassin."

3rd June 1944 p28
"Instructions concerning organization (...)"

4th June 1944 p30
"I was dying, and B1 was busy with his own ambitions. He was busy with thoughts about his representationship. (...) If I had left money behind, who knows what may be happening."

5th June 1944 pp31-32
"I have made your body my home."
"Your body is my body. I am working through your body, sitting all the time in it. A person with body is needed. Great personalities incarnate themselves like this; and incarnations themselves manifest in a body."
"Today you are suffering much pain; so I have also stopped working."

p. 32
"A person with body is needed. Great personalities incarnate themselves like this; and incarnations themselves manifest in a body. I have merged in you with my entire powers, and am unravelling them by and by."
Chari is thus right with his concept of "living master". It is thus in sufism since always. ISRC or the SRCM Shahjahanpur or the SRCM of Sister Kasturi which claim that the master is Babuji for eternity should give up their preceptorship as based of their own system if they were coherent of their belief, or admit that a preceptor having amalgamated with God or the master, is a fundamental part of the system. They do not do it on the one hand because an incarnated person is necessary to do the work, and on the other hand because there probably was not fusion. Which of them can dare to claim that Babuji amalgamated with them, as Babuji could claim that Lalaji had amalgamated with him? The only one which has the fortitude is Chari, which probably makes him an arrant liar (why does he need a "medium" to communicate with Babuji?). The others are satisfied with devotion to Babuji as if he were always alive, transforming the Sahaj Marg, defined by Babuji to be a Raja yoga, into a Bhakti yoga.

6th June 1944 p33
"You do not need to go to anybody for satsang. I do not like that the particles of transmission from other persons affect you."
Here is a secret revealed: transmission, if it does come from the master, is also contaminated by the one who gives it, or meditating in a satsang can contaminate your condition.

The transmission, according to SRCMtm, comes from the master and is thus always absolutely pure. However, the differences which depend on the person who transmits, and of the satsang can be felt. Any transmission is not good to take according to this text, and SRCMtm would do well to find a valid explanation. I know it, the explanation, it is called ignorance or lie.

p35
"I shall become free after your physical passing away; and the whole responsability shall pass onto you. This chain shall go on continuously. Nature makes and uses only one as Her instrument."

8th June 1944 p.37
"You are the Lord of the European countries."
We see the results now - just consider the case of France for example, which suicidal policy was rooted by the time of Babuji's activity.

17th June 1944 p.39
"My Master is the example of direct love to God, (...) I myself am the example of love to the medium (Master): (...) You give the method as you find the inclination of a person."
i.e. love of God or love for the master.
And the complete quote :
"My Master is the example of direct love to God, which occurred after a lot of progress in spirituality. I myself am the example of love to the medium (Master). Those who are inclined to monistic way of worship primarily find direct love to God suited for their disposition, while those who remain dependent on a mutual base, develop a nature of taking a concrete base, rooted deeply in every fibre and vein of their entire being. These latter derive benefit through the medium (Master) only. You give the method as you find the inclination in a person."
The love for the master as the only possible way and the master as the finaloty and the goal are dogmatic restrictions imposed by Chari and his henchmen to assert their capacity on the credulous masses. According to this passage, the way is adapted according to the inclinations of the practitioner, the goal being clearly God, with or without medium, and not the master. Everyone cannot love the master, some prefer the direct connection with God. It is probably what authorized Babuji to affirm that it is better not to have a master at all than a bad master.

The perfect master is always there and of all eternity.

What does it mean to have the faith, if is not to have faith in God? Is this to place oneself in this infantile position which is dependence on an impostor?

28th June 1944 p.41 - ("talking" about M1)
"He should give up the style of a teacher of Muslim theology."
Muslims, by that time, were influencing the movement very importantly.

p.42
"The death of B5 has done away with the possibility of my ill-reputation. You have committed a mistake by writting in the letter about peace to the soul of B5. He is an object of my anger."
So, Lalaji could have had a bad reputation because of what B5 had to say?

p. 46
"The first form of self-forgetfulness (loosing oneself) is called 'heart-resolution'. This is the condition of freedom from the heaviness."
"The capacity for exercise of discriminative intelligence is enhanced when 'purification of the lower self' is achieved."
Further, it is specified that “lower selfl” refers to the heart.
The discriminative intelligence of the abhyasis of SRCMtm… And for the French, who, the poor, were to choose between Sarközy and Royal!!! Sh.t!
Discriminative intelligence is a spiritual realization of the first point, but to discriminate is wrong, the reverse is thus better, which is called confusion.
Confusion is a pathological mental state, and as a result of “dividing to control” as good controlling must apply, wether it is the French Manipulative system or the manipulative system of the SRCMtm. In the era of the media and control of information, it is hard to see clearly. A very good challenge for the discriminative intelligence.

p. 47
"People prevailed upon me to get myself photographed. Now worship of photograph has started."
Send the Moslems to SRCMtm, they will deal with this problem. Perhaps moreover, when they notice what the non-Moslems did to their sufism, they will include these eccentric gangs in their programs of purification of the world, financed by you and me (oil).

p. 52
"The preceptors possessing permissions commit mistakes in their enthusiasm, without applying their intelligence."
"Someone else works in the sphere of Satsang, as a sample of idiocy (viz. S2): People introduced by him will remain dull."
The preceptors, these irresponsible tubes that open and close at the whim of the need and of the will of the master, thus ensuring the candidate who no matter what arrives to him, is the work of the master, would thus commit bloopers???
When it is the master himself who says it, he who is supposed to do all the work and thus to ensure that no errors are made, what more can one add?
Those which still had doubts have here something to reflect on, and among those who did not have any doubt on the question, some would do well to use their discriminative intelligence (inevitably developed: When one has for master the divine incarnation in person…).
For those which read these works, they could note that one is far from a watered down and mushy speech such as the one the disincarnate Babuji currently delivers to the world via the French medium.
One can sometimes be shocked by what one reads.
I hope very sincerely that these texts will be delivered to the general public, it goes without saying that SRCMtm publishes only selected pieces so as to confirm its propaganda and to establish a myth.
Lalaji and Babuji are sometimes very critical and discriminatory with their peers, to which they apply spiritual punishments such as ruptures of initiation, exclusions, put out of state to harm, focusing of anger, etc
One is far from the politically correct “criticizing is anti-spiritual”, of the very Christian “love and forgive your neighbour”, or of SRCMtm mythology “the master is nothing but love”. The masters of Sahaj Marg are very human, and it is good to know it.

p. 52
"I do not want Toms, Dicks and Harrys, who are below the mark, to fill up our Association (Satsang)."
p. 53
"Persons below the mark should not be admitted."
Good logic, but so contrary to the direction of the current deviationism: discrimination, (racial, cultural, national, psychological and spiritual) with a spiritual master of high level…
Nothing to see of this theoretical, irresponsible universal love, including, confused, denied and unreal, but so politically correct and commercial, this humanistic "must" of modern times which would be at the same time goal and proof of spiritual realization (though Chari Perfectly Indo-centered and discriminatory as soon as it is a question of entrusting power), and which is only one more hypocrisy to make swallowing the world-Socialist pill with the manipulated and controlled masses, more palateable.

The spiritual community according to Lalaji and Babuji is a closed club and very select, and one includes/understands well why it cannot be differently.

It was limited, before Lalaji in Sufisme, with Muslims-only, and probably with more mystical Muslims.

With Lalaji, the club opens to the non-Muslims but remains very select, just as with Babuji.

With the imperialist Chari and his World Socialism, U.N. project to the service of the management of the greatest masses of the population (the association of these two organizations already shows the pain). We are already being prepared for the post-Djihad with a spiritual religion able to amalgamate all the religious currents under the same system of mental control. There was thus an interest in planning this "hold-up" of Sahaj Marg, to alter it and to adapt it to this new goal. It will be increasingly difficult to be a free spirit. The need to make "numbers" to spread itself and to ensure a position in future balances returns these restrictions of another time to the dustbin: We all are brothers and sisters, one saw all in the large planetary village, we come all from Africa, the master is universal, the system is opened to all without discrimination of origin, color, etc, we are all equal, general orgy, farts (or divine grace) for all and champagne to celebrate an ecological catastrophe moreover (artificially caused deterioration of the anthropological base of the People).

The price which SRCMtm for this new program paid is the teaching itself and the capacity of the system to evolve/move people spiritually: The spiritual evolution of the individual is not the goal of SRCMtm any more, at best it is perhaps a limited by-product of the process, an accident which is not guaranteed to exist, even when the individual subjects himself to the total service of 3M (remember: Love does not have requirements).

p. 53
"If Master loves the disciple, then the Master is lover and the disciple is beloved; and if the disciple loves the Master, then he becomes lover and the Master is beloved. The relation is established in either case."
This sentence is crucial. It shows that what imports for spiritual teaching is the establishment of a connection of love between the disciple and the master. It does not presupposes a directionality nor a condition on the disciple (remember what Chari says: love does not have requirements).

With 200 ' 000 or 300 ' 000 “disciples”, Chari is of course unable to love his disciples (although he claims to love everyone and all creation: I felt his love when I questioned him -- all hiss blah-blah does not meet the experimental tests, he is an Arab-Indian carpet-merchant), then he creates the dogma in such a way that the disciples must like it, and that it is the only way. This enables him to assert a little more of his influence on the masses, and in a very malignant way, at a psychologically lower cost.

It does not matter, according to this text, wether it is the master or the disciple who loves the other, what is essential is that there is love and a lover for the transmission of his teaching. In love one can also be the disciple and the lover God.

p. 55
"If courage and will is applied for a proper purpose, it is not to be called egoism."
What is a correct goal, it goes without saying that all depends on the point of view. For an abhyasi of SRCMtm, what we do on these blogs is the expression of our egos, and it is bad. For others, what Chari does is the expression of his ego to the service of a very human plan to which Chari is subjected since his entry in the mission. What is the egoism, and in what is this distinct from the expression of the ego?

p. 66
"Every representative has become a slave of his own will; and I have this complaint from everybody. If there is no head or supreme authority in a society, this defect creeps in."

Another problem results from the choice of the supreme authority. It must be enlightened to guide correctly. Just like it is better to to have no disciples than to have incapable disciples. An absence of supreme authority is better than a bogus supreme authority.

p. 72

"One who strolls about the Brahmanda Mandal, having no approach any further, is called Brahmin. The higher status than that of these people, belongs to Maha Brahmin, whose limit of climbing is the Para Brahmanda Mandal. (...) In fact, both are in bondage. They cannot pull up anybody beyond their respective limits. This power belongs only to a saint, whose stage starts beyond that. He gets in touch with the air of the Real Being to a sufficient extent."

Concerning the meat eating:

p. 80
"He should give up meat-eating. Permission for that can only be for you. (...) You have a lack of heat; so it may be useful to you."
There is no dogmatic interdict. According to the text, to eat meat modifies the metabolism so that the system has more energy. The problem is that certain aspects of the character are amplified, bringing about a modification of the conditions. To eat meat can be useful to compensate for this lack of energy. One is thus far from the current dogma.

p. 84
"Your nature has attained the sleeping state; I had, therefore, used the word 'inactive'. (...) God does not work. If you quieten your particles more, the same state will prevail; and this state for you, I want after your death."

p. 85 "Intercommunication" of Lalaji to Babuji.
"The symptoms for the destruction of a group of people have developped. They have framed such tendencies as are taken them downwards. The other group is far better than these. Your third or fourth generation will be assigned just this work; but he will not be able to complete the work in his lifetime. Thereafter a Special Personality shall emerge and complete this work. Materialism will increase."

Lalaji explains why a new Special Personality will emerge, not in several centuries or millenia, but after 3rd or 4th generation of the successors of Babuji, to complete the work that the 3rd or 4th successor will have seen himself assigned and will not have been able to finish during his lifetime. One could read at another place where the Special Personality was a quasi-single innovation and that there would not be another before 1,000 years. The myth Babuji/Special Personality defended by certain disciples of Babuji is a fantasy: One of them is alive currently. All depends on the need, it is thus the system which decides, not the RAM Chandra's nor their disciples.

Babuji then has the vision of the principal characteristics of this Special Personality (it is not an intercommunication). As he does not give any precisions on this point, it is thus assumed that he saw an Indian.

p. 86
"The Special Personality to come in future came to vision-bluish complexion, no beard, no moustache, healthy, stomach slightly bulging, short stature, dry-natured, no courtesies, preference for coarseness, having nothing to do with anything except bloodshed."
It can be anyone, and according to description, one seems far from a spiritual and honeyed personality.
There is then a passage which shows that masters have a limited perspicacity in the management of their business (all the following passages are “intercommunications”). One can wonder up to what point one must trust them.

p. 91
"The degraded condition which has come to my society, would not have occurred anywhere else. I just wrench within. If matters continue like this, I will issue orders to you for total destruction."
"I should have structured my successor before giving permission to them. I now realize that mistake. I am withdrawing all permissions. (...) If somebody continues to impart training, that will mean, he is deceiving others. If he will still go on persisting, the result will be just reprehensible in the end. Remember, all of these arrangements by me are with a view to learning lessons by you, so that you do not repeat such mistakes. First fix your successor, then give permissions to impart training."
Failure. It seems that one can transfer that to the situation post-Babuji. If Babuji thought that he would live until 2006-2007, and if his life “were curtailed artificially”, it is possible that he did not have of successor in mind. The goal of the myth of Special Personality is to maintain the situation as if Babuji were always alive although he died: There is thus no vacancy to take and all the applicants who lust for power are on an equal footing. It is the ideal solution which the pack of weaklings installed to position themselves with authority vis-a-vis a shark, cf the imposture of Chari. However, this solution brings other problems by solidifying a dogma and by covering reality. Babuji never desired that. Masters comes to restore fluidity and the access to the truth and reality, not to work out new dogmas or to cover the reality with new mental refuse.

p. 91
"It is better to have no disciples, than to have incapable disciples. I feel that you were right in thinking that not more than four to five persons be initiated: in fact there is no harm in keeping the number even less."
Isn't this good to hear? 300,000 abhyasis… The reasons were already discussed on the blogs. The only possible structure which preserves the teaching is a high level trainer with a very restricted group of abhyasis. The direct relation is important.

p. 92
"A slave devoted to Master is one, whose guide is not capable, viz. unable to impart spiritual education properly, but is still structured as God by this disciple."
300,000 slaves.

What the Masters think of us.

p. 92
"M5 has become a worldly person, having lost touch with spirituality. S5 is a better person, but is very gross. F1 has thoughts connected to Master, but there is upsetting in temperament: H2 is gross and useless. B7 is of uncouth temperament."
etc.

18 August 1944 pp 175-176 - Lalji's dictation to Babuji
"Take the example of people starting to offer flowers to my photograph and decking it with garlands, or your clerck starting to worship the wooden footwear of his guru. These examples fall under the category of slavish animal-worship. In fact, the attachment does not remain oriented to that, whose shadow or symbol is taken as concrete object; and Reality goes out of view. With passage of time, worship of just such concrete objects come into vogue. Discriminative capacity is that when the current that connects Master and devotee is attempted to be comprehended. This is the crux matter. This constitute the definition of the refined form of discrimination. Everything else is subordinate to this."

p 177
"The work that nobody can do has been assigned to you; and the work that you are unable to do should be allocated to other people."

Chari's Marketing plan for the West

This is from a comment on Elodie's blog "Pour Que Vive le Sahaj Marg" by Alexis Sept 2, 2007. Translated by Don, using Google Translate.

http://pourquevivelesahajmarg.blogspot.com/

Alexis Said:

The rumour has it…

Chari would come to Europe next October. The rumour runs, swells and is propagated. But it soon will fall like a soufflé…

Do not dream, Chari will not come!
Why?

Because he is pragmatic and a calculator, his acts are never impulsive. After the effect of advertisement only intended to stimulate you, he ends up cancelling at the last minute, stating health reasons! The mechanics is well thought out…

Already in 2003, he explained to the Americans why he had preferred the Indians to them. Lack of numerical growth, lack of material manufacture. Still last May, he preferred financial Dubai and its attractions in the Occident:

Chari speech San Jose, 2003:

« In 1972 I travelled with Babuji to the US. After three weeks there were 76 abhyasis but until 1984 it was arround the same number. What does this show ? Nobody worked.» Discours au Danemark le 10/08/2000
« (…) I really didn't expect to come back to the USA again, because I was pretty depressed about the general situation. Not of the economy, not of the politics, not of the country, you know, but of the abhyasis of the Mission (…) It had become something of a routine, you know (…)

That was one reason why I wasn't travelling abroad for the last three years out of India (…) the people of India yet come to spirituality. So, like my old job in my company, where I was a marketing man - I had good markets, bad markets and markets which were okay (…) And the temptation was always to go to the good market first (…) marketing management dictates that you should give more time to those markets which are not so profitable or productive (…)

So I have been concentrating on India for the last three years, and I am very happy to say that, if you think in terms of statistics, probably we've had three hundred percent growth in the last three years in India. We've had so many new ashrams coming up, big ashrams coming up, housing projects coming up, abhyasis coming in droves, you know (…) And it is good (…)

I don't have a conscience at all - it's a question of work. I don't judge myself, I only do my work and leave the result to him.» - I only do My Work,

Chari speech at San Jose (CA, USA) le 10/08/2003

Speech by AJ Bhatter (Successor to Chari and Master in Waiting)

“I would be happy to say that he had the intention to travel to Europe and to the United States in April. But, perhaps he thinks that if he now went to Europe and to the United States, many among the abhyasis who were registered for Tiruppur, would not go to India. Then, he cancelled his visit. Therefore, I think that in a certain manner, we are not able to convince him that his arrival will not affect the event in India.

He is at this moment in Dubai (…) During, I would say, the 15 last years, work and time that he devoted to Europe should have produced many, many, many more abhyasis. But… it is strange, I would not say that his work was at fault… but that we did not show enough receptivity to be able to realize what should have been.”

Speech of Ajay KUMAR Bhatter in Montpellier 3/05/2007

Alexis said:

He will not come.

Let us be realistic, you (Europeans) are not gifted enough for spiritual marketing. Zero growth for the business, the coaching of your leaders did not yet bear its fruits and management feels it.

If you had really wanted to see him, you would have had to prove it. To attract numbers: to double, triple the manpower, to build cathedrals and no matter what he says … to fight to be near him.

But you are not productive enough, not enough profitable to interest him.
Chari will not come, he will not come any more.

Pragmatic, calculator, he was especially a fine strategist, a skilful tactician acting in his own interests.

He made use of you when he needed you. Rejected by the Indians in 1983, it is towards you the Occidentals that he turned. You gave him the means of building Babuji Memorial Ashram and of filling it with abhyasis. Thus, it is thanks to you that he could return to the natural course of things and return to his country in victory.

He will not come any more, it is finished!
Never forget that, he used you and now he throws you like vulgar kleenex, from now on useless.

Discussion on Sahaj Marg at:

Hi all..

The discussion below is from this site: Moving into the Stillness from Erich Shiffman, Section on Guru Yoga, moderated by Chris Crumb, Ontario, Canada.

http://p092.ezboard.com/fmovingintostillnessfrm11.showMessageRange?
topicID=69.topic&start=601&stop=625


4d-don

Discussion by Don on Other Communities

Chris Crumb Registered User (8/7/07 10:17 pm) Reply	Just do it Do not worry too much about the way you are meditating, but meditate: think permanently during the sitting that the divine light is in your heart, is your heart. Our mind cannot stop thinking, so we have to select what we are thinking about. Please ignore what others are saying about what they feel or do not feel and persevere to get your own experience in the matter. Taken from The Spider's Web, vol. 3, p. 115 –Rev. Chariji
4d don Registered User (8/8/07 1:31 pm) Reply | Edit	Spider's Web Hi all... SPIDER's WEB indeed! It does matter how one meditates and who "one obeys" or bows to, but obviously not in the Sahaj Marg faction, registered in California in 1997, where Chari, retired mill-manager, has made "obedience" the main feature of Sahaj Marg, not the "meditation" which they falsely claim is a modified "raja yoga". Sahaj Marg also claims that their "transmission" is unique although they received it from the "sufi" lineage of which Lalaji, who only met Babuji a few times when babuji was 18 yrs old, was a Master. 13 years later, in his 30's, Babuji claimed via a "dream" to be the "successor" of Lalaji, although Lalaji had a succession of his own already. Babuji also claimed the "transmission" as "unique" to Sahaj Marg. All lies. Sufism was practicing "heart to heart" transmission for centuries before. Two on one heart will give one a "head rush" so Sahaj Marg claims it to be spiritual and even "divine". We all transmit to one another (heat, light, sound, etc)...that is how we attract our friends and mates. Try it out...Christians have used the confession (forginess of sins), and the Prayer Room the same way. It does not mean it's TRUE and that the sins are really forgiven...it just means that the "slave" feels good...and becomes "dependent", just like an "addict". The Sahaj Marg Prayer which in his "autobiography" Babuji, the founder of Sahaj Marg, said he received in "inspiration" from Swami Vivekananda is another example of the "silliness" of Sahaj Marg. Vivekananda and Ramakrishna, Vivekananda's Master (in one of the many books by Romain Rolland) said (paraphrased): It is silly to keep repeating what one does not want (such as "we are slaves"), thinking that anything but what one is repeating will come to pass. If one wants to be FREE, one must stop saying one is a "slave" and start saying that one is "FREE", just like an adult. It's called "positive imaging". The Prayer is addressed to the Master, not the Divine, because: The daily prayer…(to the Guru) O Master! Thou art the real goal of human life; We are yet but slaves of wishes putting bar to our advancement. Thou art the only God and power to bring us up to that stage. To Whom is the Mission Prayer Addressed and Why Babuji himself has written that ultimately He (pointing upwards) is the real Master . . . and all the human Masters who come on this world, on this earth, are His representatives. If that is so, then why do we address the prayer, "Oh, Master" and not "Oh, God". Now today I am giving you the answer for that. Because God, it is a living God who is before you in the form of the Master ...this is an embodied flesh-and-blood divinity . . . who can understand our needs; who can understand our temperaments; who can sympathize with us, being human himself; who can accept our failings, perhaps having failed himself in some way . . . So the Sahaj Master is a "flesh and blood" divinity!! Want to buy a bridge? The divisions in Sahaj Marg is a great example of their "UNITY", ONE-ness, and "DIVINITY". NOT!!! Be ready to be "slaves" all your life...there are no "liberated" souls in Sahaj Marg and none that have returned from "the brighter world", and shown the system to work. The Book Whispers from the Brighter World (sold at $250.00 US), is channelled by an "anonymnous" French Lady (not Chari..Why not?). Chari claims it is Babuji, Chari's mother and other elevated souls "sending the messages". That is the "Spider's Web"...Sahaj Marg is now "SPIRITUALISM", not spirituality. Even the Master of Sahaj Marg is a slave to his desires (money, power,etc) as he did not even accept the desires of his Master and his organization when they refused him the 'Mastership" but re-registered the same name (he is accused of forging his letter of succession by the founder's family) in California in 1997. The original founder's family is still claiming the ownership of the SAHAJ Marg and the case is still in Supreme Court of India. Does our Taxation department know that? Which SRCM is "tax-exempt"? Research before joining and just swallowing these "WORDS"... Turn off your TV...Stop believing the "come-on's" of the businessmen of RELIGION, the Televangelists (businessmen) from India, and find the ONE on your own....The USA representative (S. Khanjee) is president/owner of LOTUS Hotels in Texas. SRCM is good for the tourism industry. SRCM recently purchased a 28 acre ranch near Austin for retreats from the "money making" pressures. Sahaj Marg is usurped from Sufism and then Chari is now trying to acquire (stealing?) Sahaj Marg from Babuji's family!...Can that lead to ONE or UNITY? Not if Sahaj Marg or the Shri Ram Chandra Mission is an example. SRCM is sorely "DIVIDED"...Will it do anything but be another RELGIOUS division or be a "harmful sect" as the Belge and French Goverment has called it. Let's not even get into it's "apocalyptic" aspect of SRCM and Sahaj Marg, with a "special Personality" (Babuji?) who is to "destroy part of the "COSMOS" according to Chari...Women are not capable of such destruction and so they can't be MASTER in Sahaj Marg...ONLY MEN! Women are workers, breeders, proselytizers and MEN are the MASTERS... Sound familiar?? 4d-don
Chris Crumb Registered User (8/8/07 9:06 pm) Reply	Re: Spider's Web Dear Don...hello. Hope you get over your major anger trip. All the best.
4d don Registered User (8/11/07 1:57 pm) Reply | Edit	LOGIC or ANGER in Ruthless Sahaj Marg Hi ALL... Being a creature of "white light", I have the ability to use the blue end of intellect and/or the red end of emotions and all the colors in between. The ONE made us that way and it is for a reason. I accept REALITY as it is and will not change the ONE nor ITS PLAN. Those who would stop you from using, or getting you to attempt to "eliminate" the "red" end of your spectrum are not "intellectual" in their material and in their methods, and have trapped you into the docility of "doing nothing" but "obey" like a child. Religions all do that!! These new Invaders (Master of the UNIVERSE) also use "RELIGION"... After me, the archangels!!... And it won't be "LOGICAL". I am just preparing the way and exposing the "scandals" with "logic" and intellect and that is what you would call "anger". Wait and SEE! Babuji's family know the ruthlessness and the ANGER of the new "OWNERS" of Sahaj Marg... If LOGIC and WORDS do not work, then the next steps taken by the next genetaion of "illogicals", will leave no doubt....Sahaj Marg does not raise the "intellectual" bar in people, but "denses" the population. Read the historical experience of the "sudras" (black slaves brought from Sudan) from Southern India, with the Brahmin caste. When you see ANGER, it will be a much harsher reality than these words. Try and call "anger", the way SRCM adepts (150 of them) have allegedly attacked the "Ashram" and allegedly beat on Umesh's (Babuji's son) wife and the "guardian". (according to Navneet, Babuji's grandson)... Maybe tell your MASTER to call off his angry "DOGS"...That is not SPIRITUAL or INTELLECT or LOGICAL but that is ANGER.... Nationalists, as the leadership of Sahaj Marg and SRCM are, mostly from the Brahmin caste and from the old feudal families who are trying to retake their country after having lost it to the Monghols, the Arabs, the Moslems, (Pakistan, Bagladesh, Kashmir), the British, apparently have the right to use ANGER and they do...Give us (the peaceful but not docile Canadians) the same right so as to defend ourselves. We will take that right anyway and will not ask permission from invading strangers, even religious invaders or self-called MASTERS. Lalaji's family was given 555 villages by the Monghols for their support and for supplying a Military via taxes. All Spiritual of course..;-)) ...sort of like Christianity and Islam!! Chari is giving control (appointing) of "tax-exempt" SRCM Canada to his "cronies"...Look at your Board of Directors. Oh Yes! there are a few "token" Canadians who then claim that all the money raised in Canada, stays in Canada...Check that out! Dare to ask! Look for numbers that "disappear"... The reality of LIFE is that we are an Intellectual and an Emotional life form. I chose intellect and logic first as I am a "civilized" person. But the REALITY of LIFE says that I have the ability to use ANGER just like everyone, including MASTERS. As we are made that way by the ONE, you or Sahaj Marg will not change that in yourself nor in others....The docile will be the "slaves" and the "fodder" for the "invading" angry and ruthless MASTERS who would use all of their "SPECTRUM"...If Sahaj Marg wants peace, they can stay home (India) and MEDITATE and stop using VIOLENCE and ANGER....(ALLEGED and in court). If Sahaj Marg "leaders" were "intellectuals, we could converse...That is not the case. Obedience is not synonymous with LOGICAL! It means "DO NOT QUESTION THE MASTER" (and their families or representatives). Try and explain to the Gay and Lesbian community why Sahaj Marg MASTERS think that their "lifestyle" (gays and lesbians) are "un-natural" and why their Canadian Constitution guaranteed "rights" are an abuse of Human Rights Legislation. Talk to Chari before that community hears of that oppression and begins targeting the "fundamentalism" that is SAHAJ MARG. That is "tax exempt" in this country? Tell your friends you obey and support that "fundamentalist" GURU! I guess you don't have gay friends...They are "marginalized" in Sahaj Marg. Love all but avoid the angry and the GAYS eh? On Women's rights and Homosexuality Sahaj Marg is no better than Christian or Islamic Fundamentalism...What's next, Lalaji created the UNIVERSE in six days....Maybe Stockwell Day (a fundamentalist government Minister), could become an abhyasi?? ;-)) 4d-don
noswrite Registered User (8/11/07 9:56 pm) Reply	Re: LOGIC or ANGER in Ruthless Sahaj Marg Hi Don, All I know of the things you write about, are what you’ve written. And I’ve read everything you’ve written in this thread. I understand that you consider a particular organization to be corrupt, though I have trouble linking up your references such as logic and ruthless anger. I know nothing of this organization, thus have no interest in it other than your involvement. I’m about as impartial a reader as you will find on this topic. But I hear your passion, your intelligence and intensity. Perhaps a tinge of bitterness, quite understandable from hard experience. And as I understand it, your intent is to advise caution by encouraging an impartial, dispassionate evaluation by any who may be considering becoming a part of this, or a similar, organization ... though I don’t know what a similar organization might be. But I am most willing to listen to your comments, and do listen, and am interested in a cohesive over-view of what’s going on, and the sources of your information, should it be your inclination to spend the time and energy required for such a writing.
Chris Crumb Registered User (8/12/07 8:46 am) Reply	Patience Quote: I guess you don't have gay friends... I have lots of gay friends. Did you know that scientists have observed when we are angry that a chemical is produced in the brain which temporarily lowers our IQ? Quote: We need to cultivate patience even if we have no interest in spiritual development because, without it, we remain vulnerable to anxiety, frustration and disquiet. If we lack patience, it is difficult for us to maintain peaceful relationships with others. Patient is the opponent to anger, the most potent destroyer of virtue. We can see from our own experience how much suffering arises from anger. It prevents us from judging a situation correctly, and it causes us to act in regretable ways. It destroys our peace of mind and disturbs everyone else we meet. Even people who are normally attracted to us will be repelled when they see us angry. Anger can make us reject or insult our own parents, and, when it is intense, it can even drive us to kill the people we love, or even to take our own life. Usually anger is triggered off by something quite insignificant, such as a comment that we take personally, a habit that we find irritating, or an expectation that was not fulfilled. Based on such small experiences, anger weaves an elaborate fantansy, exaggerating the unpleasantness of the situation, and providing rationalizations and justifications for the sense of dissapointment, outrage, or resentment. It leads us to do harmful things, therebye causing offence to others and transforming a small difficulty into a great problem. If we were asked, 'Who caused all the wars in which so many people have have died?', we would have to reply that they were caused by angry minds. If nations were full of calm, peace-loving people, how could wars ever arise? Anger is the greatest enemy of living beings. It harmed us in the past, it harms us now, and, if we do not overcome it through the practice of patience, it will continue to harm us in the future. As Shantideva says: ...this enemy of anger has no function Other than to harm me. External enemies harm us in slower and less subtle ways. If we practice patience with them, we can even win them over and turn them into our friends; but there can be no reconciliation with anger. If we are lenient with anger, it will take advantage of us and harm us even more. Moreover, whereas external enemies can harm us only in this life, anger harms us in many future lives. Therefore, we need to eliminate anger as soon as it enters our mind because, if we do not, it will quickly become a blazing fire that consumes our merit. Patience, on the other hand, helps us in this life and in all future lives. As Shantideva says: There is no evil greater than anger And no virtue greater than patience. With patience, we can accept any pain that is inflicted upon us, and we can easily endure our usual troubles and indispositions. With patience, nothing upsets our peace of mind and we do not experience problems. With patience, we maintain an inner peace and tranquility that allows spiritual reaizations to grow. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Edited by: Chris Crumb at: 8/12/07 12:02 pm
4d don Registered User (8/13/07 9:37 pm) Reply | Edit	Re: Patience Hi all... Thanks for the comments Nosewrite...Could not disagree with anything you say... Chris, the level of IQ in Sahaj Marg that allows statements as I quoted above is not theologicall or morally elevated or Calm or of a High IQ. I would state that such descrimination shows a lot of suppressed "anger" and not "love your neighbour as yourself". Statement by Chari, such as: "God is Male", or "Women can't be Masters" because they are not "destructive" to the point needed for such destruction and that, by implication, that Masters are, are signs of low or un-developped and machievelian and macho, logic or of a "low IQ". Even the statement of Chari to the "corruption" of the Hindu and Christian churches and their "bribing of God" or their inability to "forgive sins" in confession, also shows a lack of tolerance that they then want from others. In Europe, these days, the citizenry is saying: TOLERANCE FOR THE TOLERANT. I agree with all the statements of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and don't see how they apply to me in this particular instance as what I desire is not to "ban such groups" but to challenge their "tax exempt" status in all countries, as long as they make statements that could be shown to be "anti constitutional". SRCM's status in UN DPI program is also logically questionable as they are a "theocracy" and a "pyramid" or a totalitarian organization with all the power self-vested in the Master as PRESIDENT for life. UN demands that their affiliates be "democratic". The Jehovah's Witnesses was the last "religion" to "voluntarily" pull out their request for membership, rather than adhere to the UN guidelines. SRCM's statements on Women, Gays and other religions and lack of democracy, as it is understood by most countries, makes it a "deliquent" member and it should have it's membership revoked. To offer "medical services" to its members does not make SRCM a "charity". It only targets "high profile" media events to donate to and is not a "genuine" Charity. Sahaj Mart adepts are more concerned about their own "spiritual" progress than about the plight of the Poor in India or the world and "cleaning" your "past samskaras" does not count as "environmental work" as some claim. SRCM does not adhere to the basic standards for "open " disclosures that is needed to live up to the spirit of the Charities laws. Even the Televangelists are more transparent. I am not angry but I will not lie down and let these "cons" target the children with their "Boarding Schools", in my family without "speaking out" with words...first...Then with other "legal" means. The divisions and the allegations between the founding father's family and the current "Master" and his re-registering the society in California and Texas should raise the "red flag" of any thinking person, not just an "angry" victim. Most victims just go away and lick their wounds as the media of the past, was not easy to access. Now we have the "internet" .... We can be heard and have our say. That is all I am doing...getting my say with the TRUTH as I see it.... I make no claims to represent anyone but myself... unlike the "OTHERS" who want me to "obey" them!! I am not in their town, country, they are in mine breaking and abusing our laws... The family of the founder is even making "criminal" allegation such as "poisonning" etc. I already know the success (or failure) rate of Chari's arranged marriages.... I will expose... I will protect the "oppressed", the gays, the "gullible", the women, my grand-daughters, and other religions, in my town and my country and not support the "oppressor"... I AM CANADIAN!! lol ;-)) Angry and "nationalists" is what THEY are, as they attack the Ashram controlled by the family's founder and beat the mother and a custodian, and they are trying to regain their past power status by "sucking" power from other countries. They show a "public image" and it fools most. Actors do it all the time. The fantasy is more sale-able than REALITY. Sahaj Marg, can just deliver on the UNITY of SPIRITUALITY that they promise and sell, by uniting their own society and groups and factions and castes... before they sell that UNITY of SPIRITUALITY... Don
noswrite Registered User (8/14/07 10:57 am) Reply	Re: Patience Hi Don, Hmmm. Perhaps you may find something to disagree with here? You may not have noticed, but the spelling is noswrite, not nosewrite ... and though I do have a prominent proboscis, the screen name I chose for this board refers to the Latin translation of nos into the English we (or us), as in ... WeWrite. Us. You and I. So, here’s what we have written, you and I, and Chris too. Though righteous and fervent anger exists within the spectrum of humanness, its release in the spirit of amorphous incoherence can by found in any child’s tantrum, which after awhile can “make me a headache,” (as one of my boys used to say). Though anger expressed as amorphous incoherence may attract a few of the curious, it will do so for only for awhile, though the sympathetic or fanatical may linger longer. For righteous and fervent anger to be heard in these modern days of media-overload that competes for my attention (for like many I’ve heard and seen a lot), the message, whether presented as entertaining humor, wit, or point-by-point logic, needs to be presented with a man’s, or a woman’s, laser focus. Anger can own you, or serve you. I could care less about the message of anger. Anger is a common thing, found anywhere. Any particular anger is no more special than any other. If the intent is to be heard, then ... Why should I contribute my time for the reason of your need to be heard? What does your need to be heard do for me, especially when the sun and sky and breeze of a beautiful August day calls out Mark, Mark, we miss you out here? And, though you may label me as uncompassionate, or obscured by the veils of ignorance for feeling no need to hear you, that doesn’t get you heard, does it. If you can compel me to listen, then your odds of being heard increase. Here are two methods of presenting a message that compel me to listen. 1. not suitable for women. 2. suitable for all, even children.
4d don Registered User (8/14/07 1:03 pm) Reply | Edit	Re: Patience Hi Noswrite... Sorry about the typo (I studied latin)...thanks for the comment. I have no need to be heard...I just want the info out there in case anyone needs it in the future. The need is not on me but I fill the future needs of others. Just like a "Danger" sign on the highway....It does not fullfill a need in the "signer" but fills the possible future needs for information by a Sign reader (signee). If I place a "danger sign" on the Highway because of my "desire" to be a good citizen after having been "negatively impacted" by an event or a circumstance, and do not just save myself from that danger, but think of others who come after me, then I am not concerned if others do not need or read my sign. My duty has been fulfilled and I can rest peacefully as having been a "good citizen". I would call that "spiritual" because it is as NATURE gives..TO all regardless of their Moral status, class, religion, gender, age, etc... It is a gift much like the "SUNSHINE" or the wind and rain. Mine is a testimonial and a research on a topic that had almost no info (one source in France) beside the "company" PR, pryor to my blogs and comments on other's blogs. Now there are many who have responded to my "COMMENTS", including the family of the founder, the families of members of other "schisms" of this group and other "ex-inner circle" members who have left or have been "pushed" out by this "faction" of businessmen who took over a small (200 abhyasis) meditation group and made it more of a "nationalist" movement and a cult of a person than the original intent of the founder for a "spiritual" movement. Thanks for your comments...I am on dial-up so the links are not available to me (no streaming). Walk in the sunshine and don't worry about my info unless you need it. REALITY is outside and inside and also on the (virtual) NET also....YOU CHOSE your place in it with my blessing...;-)) Don Edited by: 4d don at: 8/14/07 1:14 pm
noswrite Registered User (8/14/07 1:46 pm) Reply	Re: Patience “this "faction" of businessmen who took over a small (200 abhyasis) meditation group and made it more of a "nationalist" movement and a cult of a person than the original intent of the founder for a "spiritual" movement.” Hi Don, This is good information, it begins to put a perspective to your postings. You have a good balance and a kind nature, my intent in recent postings is to give you feedback to perhaps benefit you in honing your message regarding this specific topic, should you find my input of use. I don’t mind about the nosewrite thing, my response was kinda tongue-in-cheek, as I think you know. About the two videos ... sorry you didn’t get a chance to see them. 1. Is a clip from the movie, Glengarry Glen Ross, written by the brilliant David Mamet. If you’ve seen the movie, it’s where the businessman/salesman played by Alec Baldwin gives a hard-nosed motivational speech to some salesmen. Old school, hard-ass, fear-based ... but also, an excellent example of total focus upon a singular intent - selling for the company. Whether one loves it, hates it, agrees or disagrees with the content, the clip holds fascination and provokes contemplation, radiates samsara, and it’s quite admirable as a piece of dialogue ... the character quite obviously is practically vibrating with anger and he channels this into controlled, focused speech. It’s a clip that probably sparks recognitions of life examples for many of us, or at least some of us. 2. This clip is a cartoon, ostensibly written for children. It’s a spoof on the Snow White story, in which the dwarfs are con artists.
4d don Registered User (8/21/07 1:10 pm) Reply | Edit	Re: Arranged Marriages...Spirituality? To All who think Guru Yoga is Divine... Arranged Marriages Targeting Western girls This is from a distraught mother of a new abhyasis of Sahaj Marg (24 yr old girl) in France... (From Elodie's Blog" (Pour Que Vive le Sahaj Marg) in France.../www.blogger.com/comment....7332492791 Monique said: My daughter returned. She went to celebrate the birthday of the guru as you had said! But what did they do to her??? SHE BECAME COMPLETELY INSANE!!! At the beginning all went well. She radiated and was charmed by her stay in India. I believed in a miracle. They had transformed my daughter. Except that it did not answer any of my questions about the sect. And then 3 days ago she became suddenly hysterical. She said to me that she was going to return to marry there (India)! ...that they had introduced somebody to her TO MARRY HER!!!. Now she is locked up in her room. She does not un-clench her teeth. She is depressed again. But what did they do to her there (India)? WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE? Monique This is what Sahaj Marg has become...Babuji (and/or his family) could help this French family. Where are the PRECEPTORS? Why do they come to US? Welcome to The New World ORDER of Sahaj Marg. Sahaj Marg, the MacDonald's of Spirituality is really Spiritualism and nationalism...not SPIRITUALITY... Don...
Shakti Das Registered User (8/27/07 1:19 am) Reply	God Bless the Child who has his own I may be off track here, but an observation for what it's worth. I notice that some people tend to be authoritarian prone if not addicted. That is that they are attracted to authoritarian types which perhaps offers them a sense of order, control, meaning, and security that they other wise have not found within. Granted this can increase external attachment to external authoritarian systems and thus the individual who so becomes attached/addicted certainly risks being controlled and manipulated. In those type of systems/situations an inordinate amount of importance is put toward obedience, faith, loyalty, and belief. Then on the other hand or opposite situation, other people may be the opposite; i.e., rebellious and healthfully skeptical of external authority and top down totalitarian systems. I think that this maturation process requires the individual to at least at one time in their life, question all hand-me-down beliefs and thus hone their innate ability for discernment and critical thought. Once that is established then confidence that they can find out for themselves is also established. Once one has gone through this rebellious state (a necessary disillusionment process from Santa Claus myths, etc.) then creative thought can take hold (from the inside out). There one does not crave outside direction or help or at least is not afraid of it since it poses no threat -- no possibility of exploitation, abuse, or addiction. However I also observe a third tendency, which is, people who waver back and forth from perfect trust, loyalty, obedience, and belief in an authoritarian character, structure, and/or belief system one day, and then on another day, express complete rebelliousness (sometimes accompanied by cynicism, despair, nihilism, resentment, or depression). Then the next day one's faith is renewed and trust and belief in "the system" is complete. Then the following day, more rebelliousness and cynicism, etc. I expect there is a name for this syndrome? Anyway i expect that there is a lot insecurity and fear due to lack of self confidence in people who are subjected to authoritarian people and systems and . My heart goes out to them. May they be led to their own creative power so that it may be activated and renewed! Quote: Artist: Amboog-A-Lard Winds God bless the child who has his own. But all creation isn't carved in stone. People are blind and they can't decide. Path of destruction leads to mindless suicide.. Mother looks but she'll never see, All the abuse, why don't we just set her free!!! We are trapped in a fortress of insanity. Life's potential, lost to hypocrisy. Aggravation turning to aggression, slipping slowly Into repression. We can look and we can see, The winds of change must set her free. Leave her be!! The winds of change, lost!!, in irony. Breaking down the walls of hate and all of those who separate. Segregation, civil war, tearing down confining doors. The fall of solidarity, burn the flag, set me free. Time for change, disengage, now its time to Rearrange, my life. Necessity!! Necessity!! Conformity!! Conformity!! Uniformity of their policy!! Sanity!! Sanity!! Insanity!! Insanity!! Deformity of what's meant to be!! Donny "Another world is possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day I can hear her breathing." — Arundhati Roy Edited by: Shakti Das at: 8/27/07 1:26 am
Chris Crumb Registered User (8/27/07 9:55 am) Reply	Blessed Child I think there is a lot of truth in what you wrote. Just to add there are folks I have met who seem simply to stick with their Guru and it never seems to be a big issue for them, like it's not a big deal, it's just what they do...they claim it is easy for them because they need guidance, don't know what is best for them and want that guidance which they say keeps them on the path.
yogini db Registered User (8/27/07 10:04 am) Reply	Re: Blessed Child Quote: I notice that some people tend to be authoritarian prone if not addicted. That is that they are attracted to authoritarian types which perhaps offers them a sense of order, control, meaning, and security that they other wise have not found within. this says so much, donny. not finding "meaning" within.... wow, that is incredibly sad.
Shakti Das Registered User (8/27/07 3:46 pm) Reply	Re: Blessed Child Many different mindsets. One may feel safe and secure in a tight ordered external structure, while another may feel stifled and feel a need to break free and explore new territory. Darlene, I think we agree that this can be a very tragic trap -- a bond that many people never escape from stemming from an inner emptiness to be sure. Maybe better to say repression. In general those prone toward obedience upon a highly structured and strong authoritarian character with its accouterments of structured belief systems, socio-political ideology, and/or religious dogma are on the rise both in religious fundamentalist movements and political totalitarianism (state terrorism) where “security state” becomes the euphemism for police state (prison). Indeed these people who go along with such have to be very insecure, afraid, and even terrified – all of which are products of confusion and attachment – a disconnect from their inner/innate order/meaning or wisdom. Those who have not learned to think for themselves or worse that thinking for oneself is somehow evil or bad, like free thought is a rebellion from God, family, and fatherland ... well they are fxxked from an early age. So what I observe despite the manipulation, abuse, and exploitation being perpetuated upon its members in various sects and systems, too often there the need to place trust, obedience, loyalty, faith, and belief in the system even increases, rather than the trust and confidence within the human being. Actually trusting one’s own feelings becomes counter to the goals of the system, is viewed as dangerous, and is discouraged or punished. So if it is a dysfunctional family with a strong authority figure who dispenses authority and “worth” upon his/her worthy disciples or if it is a religious or social/political authoritarian structure, the disempowerment of the human being’s ability to think critically is necessary, let alone to think creatively. That has to become repressed/inhibited it seems in order for the authoritarian system to “function” dysfunctionally. So the mathematical goes like this. The more fear, confusion, and insecurity, then the more these confused people cling to systems that promise them security, order, and protection. Hence a successful formula for any totalitarian wannabe, despot, dictator, scapegoat, pope or warrior king/god. Just rattle the cages and frightened people will tend to grab on more tightly! So what happens is that for the faithful, abuse and exploitation remains ignored or denied, where those who may talk about it are decried and further extricated, marginalized or expelled. Since power and control over others is a sure sign of corruption in the first place, corruption and abuse will occur. For some “members”/subscribers this takes the form of a schizoid wavering back and forth, whether or not the “rumors” are true or not? I can’t condone that, to it’s just lies, I’ll ignore that. The opposite of that blind faith and obedience (often called loyalty) is disillusionment. Oh God we were mislead! The often blame is reverted to rather than taking responsibility. After the blame game is over with, they just join another authoritarian group or leader (psychological transference), thus the syndrome is repeated again – names and faces change but the dynamic karma is the same. Now I am not saying that this is true with all groups or communities but only with authoritarian structures dominated by authoritarian personalities. For example one joins an authoritarian church because one’s own self authority is shot or none existence (severely repressed). One gains self worth only when it is bequeathed (when one does what one’s superiors expect of them). It is very clear what is expected of them so they then know what to do. Then they are rewarded with authority. Such systems are inherently hierarchical. Finally maybe if they are faithful, good, loyal, and obedient to the cause, they are given authority themselves to lord over others. Of course at all times one’s own self worth is determined by the security and image of the church or structure, hence an inordinate amount of energy and attention is given to the upkeep of the organization’s image, security, and well being. In the opposite type of community (call it egalitarian) based on equanimity and self empowerment, the structure of the organization is built around self empowerment; i.e., empowering the creative spirit in action. There intuition, inner wisdom, and the dormant innate teacher is recognized, encouraged and brought forward as a co-creative self actualization process. Instead of being hierarchical or authoritarian, these type of communities can be recognized by their decentralized expressions of equanimity (power and wisdom is recognized and respected as innate in all sentient beings and life support systems), hence the entire community is consulted before action is undertaken, while action requires consensus. Thus the consensus process rectifies and ensures against any difficulties such as social alienation and crime preemptively. It would be an understatement really to say that such types of egalitarian communities obviously do not thrive in the context of contractions of the heart, suspicion, distrust, paranoia, insecurity, and fear. "Another world is possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day I can hear her breathing." — Arundhati Roy Edited by: Shakti Das at: 8/27/07 4:21 pm
Chris Crumb Registered User (8/27/07 11:28 pm) Reply	Re: Blessed Child Yes I see what you mean. What does this have to do with Guru Yoga? I'm not being glib, it is an honest question. You have read Autobiography of a Yogi yes? He had a Master. What he describes there is if I recall correctly quite beautiful. I mean really according to Yogi Bajhan Gu=Dark Ru=Light. 'Anything' that takes you from dark to light is a Guru. Or you know how about everyone is my Spiritual Guide, everything that happens...All is Spiritual Guide. Quote: Such systems are inherently hierarchical I'd say every religion I have ever encountered is heirachical. Heck society is heirachical, perhaps the whole world, structurally, politically speaking. In the west money is king. As one character in the movie Pulp Fiction says to the other something like "If you ain't got legal tender you're nobody." Sad this is the reality for many. Quote: It would be an understatement really to say that such types of egalitarian communities obviously do not thrive in the context of contractions of the heart, suspicion, distrust, paranoia, insecurity, and fear. True, but these feelings might arise for individuals from time to time and it would be the job of the community to ...well...what do you think such a community could do to help the afflicted? To help the mentally ill, the addicted for instance? Those victims of hatred, incest, addiction etc.? It's fine to have a loving supportive community but how would that look in action, in karma yoga terms?
Shakti Das Registered User (8/28/07 2:30 am) Reply	Re: Blessed Child Quote: "What does this have to do with guru yoga" Well really everything at least for me. Listen the short answer is that if you have no ego -- i mean really surrendered a lot then every thing and every being is your teacher. You are open and teachings come through all the time. Close that door and you are disconnected. Then you see a teacher as a separate being. The more closed off sentient beings are from their own source - which includes a lack of inner self confidence and self direction (inside out) (which also includes confsuion, fear, lack of self worth, meaning, and the rest of the kleshas), then the more they tend to follow authoritarian type teachers, fundamentalists, dogmatists, tightly structured faith based religion, and so forth -- "just tell me what to do". These sentient beings get their self worth according to how they fit in into the belief structure, the hierarchy, dogma, and authoritarian structure. It matters little to me if the organization is Islamic, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, or UFO -- it's the same dynamics. It doesn't matter either if it is a dogmatic socio-political authoritarian structure where one becomes attached to or not, rather the same factors of fear, confusion, insecurity, and conformnity are similarly at play IMO. These sentient beings are practicing guru yoga from ego, asking for direction from the guru be they a pope, priest, preacher, sheikh, swami, lama or president. It's obvious to me that many people who go to such teachers are chronically practicing transference -- of one authority figure or super ego to another. I'm not saying that this is bad or wrong of them, but just observing a very large phenomena as to causes and effects. Now I am not saying that this is the highest form of guru yoga but rather this is perhaps the most disastrous and limiting form. For example there is no mistaking that there exist fundamentalist political organizations not only in America, the Middle east and India, but throughout the planet. They have been on the rise lately. I think there is no denying it? So what I am saying is that even if one thinks that they have pure devotion (and I am certain that religious suicide bombers do have pure devotion and faith) this cab be seen as another form of guru yoga, albeit one that you and may not approve. These are just symptoms of people who have given up or have been deprived of their innate ability to think for themselves. In most cases even the act of thinking for oneself is declared sinful and rebellious by fundamentalists. That is why democracy and secular government is so dreadfully feared by such groups. So all because there are a few gurus like Yogi Bhajan who have tried to bring his students back into residing in the imperishable self inside, to teh Sat Guru who resides within all, many/most but not all of these so called gurus just keep on stringing their disciples out is my observation. So I can go to see a teacher now with no trepidation.fear, with complete surrender, because I feel totally grounded within my heart, but that wasn't true ten years ago In short the signs of a great teacher is one who points you back to your inner teacher and light. So I am commentating on authoritarian teachers and structures because they the mechanisms are so black and white -- transparent. It might not be your own of course, but just to support what 4dDon was saying to the effect that indeed its very attractive to many people simply to surrender to a strong external structure/teacher and do as they say -- father knows best. In the long run that can be a tragedy. My observation is that it can also be a syndrome where one wanders from one authoritarian structure to another, but never gets that inner flame lit. So sure we agree moving from darkness to light is what the true guru does -- that is the activity of the guru. But that does not mean that everyone who claims to be a guru actually does that. In some cases the opposite happens. Quote: "I'd say every religion I have ever encountered is heirachical. Heck society is heirachical, perhaps the whole world, structurally, politically speaking. In the west money is king. As one character in the movie Pulp Fiction says to the other something like "If you ain't got legal tender you're nobody." Sad this is the reality for many." This is a cynical and materialistic conclusion. Sorry I don't buy it. I don't live inside that movie -- thanks. It's just your conclusion. Are you holding onto it? Is it your story or somebody else? Quote: "It's fine to have a loving supportive community but how would that look in action, in karma yoga terms?" Well that's an excellent question.I have seen many excellent answers, but I don't think any of which will fit on this guru yoga thread Actually there are many books on this. As a living example the Okanagan tribe in BC have some thing going for them even today despite the colonization, rape, and empire building still going on all around them. Maybe the better question would be not how to build it, but how to keep the white man (or facsimile) from stealing all their resources? Maybe a new thread -- egalitarian spiritual communities would begin to touch the surface of this large altruistic endeavor where the heart and the body merge together and manifest in skillful means in integrity. Not unlike the bodhisattva ideal and going quote beyond simple material abundance, is a great book on this subject and truly inspiring is Daniel Quinn's Ishmael Keep the faith! Donny "Another world is possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day I can hear her breathing." — Arundhati Roy
yogini db Registered User (8/28/07 6:09 am) Reply	Re: Blessed Child Quote: In short the signs of a great teacher is one who points you back to your inner teacher and light. beautiful, donny. i couldn't agree more.
Chris Crumb Registered User (8/28/07 8:05 am) Reply	Re: Blessed Child Quote: This is a cynical and materialistic conclusion. Sorry I don't buy it. I don't live inside that movie -- thanks. It's just your conclusion. Are you holding onto it? Is it your story or somebody else? No I'd say it is just an observation based on my own exprience with religions I've encountered. The religions I've encountered are heirarchical to some extent or another. I don't live inside the movie I quoted either but many people do...I see a heirarchy as a construct, a creation of humans to organize other humans in some way to achieve an end, what the motivaion and the end wishing to be achieved is varies widley. It's interesting what you say to be sure, I agree with much of it, perhaps all of it but I might take it step farther then you did...but that is a different discussion, probably a private one. Also there is a whole other side to this Guru thing as we both agree, a way to go to a Lama, Guru, Master, Wican etc. without creating this heirarchical structure in the mind. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hie...ierarchies Social hierarchy Many human organizations, such as businesses, churches, armies and political movements are hierarchical organizations, at least officially; commonly seniors, called "bosses", have more power than their subordinates. Thus the relationship defining this hierarchy is "commands" or "has power over". (Some analysts question whether power "really" works as the traditional organizational chart indicates, however.) See also chain of command. I'd say 12 step groups and this place (MIS) are not heirarchical though...any organization which sets up an individual(s) to be elevated above the others creates a kind of heirarchy if one(s) are not careful. This can be spiritual based, money, sex, knowledge or power based. I'm sure there are other examples too, can't think of any others now, have to go. Edited by: Chris Crumb at: 8/28/07 8:34 am
Chris Crumb Registered User (8/28/07 7:17 pm) Reply	Re: Blessed Child/Jnana/Wisdom/Bhakti/Love/Surrender Quote: Now I am not saying that this is the highest form of guru yoga but rather this is perhaps the most disastrous and limiting form. Yes, it seems that over the history of this this thread many times the focus was on the lowest form of Guru yoga or on criticism of it ... I wonder if maybe we couldn't look now to the positive highest forms of Guru Yoga? Surely there are some who can speak to this too? You know how about the 'ideals' or the altruism of Love, Devotion, Surrender. It does not have to be to a human being if that freaks one out. It can be direct to God, to any deity- Shiva, Kali, Durga, Tara, Ma. There is something very beautiful and transendent- at the very least temporarily- that can happen in such devotion. Also one can come up again and again against the egos'refusal to surrener, refusal to love, refusal to devotion...in fact it's a great way, a kind of quick path, to finding out where you are at in terms of ego clinging in my humble opinion. I am a bit reticent to disuss my own experiences of it here though, as it is not always safe to do so, I feel one can become the object of criticism around such...I understand though, or at least I think I understand why, especially here in the west, where individualism is king, why these concepts- Love, Devotion and Surrender- to any Guru, whether human or not, is anathema to some and blessed for others. Guru yoga in yoga involves Bhakti (Devotion) Yoga and Karma Yoga or Seva (or can involve both.) It is very different from Jnana to be sure. Jnana involves a lot of discriminating wisdom, using of course the intellect, using the mind, thinking wisdom through disriminatory thinking, thinking deeply on things. It is cool in a sense as a quality, at least for me. This can be confounding to some, confusing, without juice, but for others it is clear, straight forward has the spark they enjoy. Bhakti is of the heart, is very warm, emotional if you like. Maybe a dangerous path for some, but for others, willing to follow the heart unceasingly, to find the truth in the heart, to unrelentlessly follow the muse, follow intuition, the Path Of Love, it can be very beautiful, fulfilling and lead to wisdom too. These are just some musings off the top of me head. Funny I think of science and logic when I think of Jnana, I think of the arts, particulary poetry, Blake comes to mind When I think of Bhakti. They have their different appeal... But perhaps ultimatley both contain the seeds of liberation. It's hard for a not yet enlightened chap to know... Then again...my heart tells me "no you do know" Jnana says 'how do you know and what?" Both can bring us there! For there is here now! There is no difference between you and I Ultimately we are all made of stardust! So what's all the fuss about?
4d don Registered User (8/28/07 7:54 pm) Reply | Edit	Re: Blessed Child Hi Shakti Das and Chris... I can't find anything to disagree with in Shakti's comments but I would add that authoritarianism is not always overt. Spirituality has a ring of "no ritual, no structure, no buildings"...just like the native spirituality who have no "churches" but are "OUT OF DOORS" and where the Shaman is not revered as a GURU....There are no yearly "pilgrimmages" to or worship of the Shaman. My dad could be called a shaman, but he was just a simple man with some "gifts" that he said, we all have but most don't realize....lol ;-)) There are conspiracies out there, especially when one mixes nationalism with tribal (pyramidal or hierarchical) religions and/or the mis-organized and mis-named pyramidal spiritual movements that are really cults of material "individuals" and not spirituality at all. To obey to the point of "immorality" is not spirituality. To repeat "I am a slave of my desires" daily is not spritual and not even "intellectually" wise if we understand the value of "positive imaging" and we understand the words of Vivekananda and his Master Ramakrishna who called this practice "silly". He was kind. Arranged Marriages are not "spiritual". If spirituality has any value in controlling the emotions, it should also polish the "intellect" to a logical gem, and not spew the grossness of "Seeking the Great Morality by being "immoral" as some Gurus who demand unquestionning "obedience" to any point, even immorality or criminality. Spirituality should mean relating to SPIRIT who's movements, in my mind, can be defined as spherical and/or spiral in all directions at once (scalar) and not in one direction (vectored) only. SPIRIT IS. Those geometric attributes if reversed, can allow or even create the logic for the fundamentalist MALE or FEMALE GOD, which in reality, to be ONE, should be ALL or BOTH so as to the called the ONE (Vivekananda). It (the spirit) would not have, or move, in "sharp angles" such as the materialist pyramid with a "top-down" structure imho. That pyramidal structure is effective for the 3-d of crystals (or the tripple-bonded "matter" as Buckminster Fuller would say...lol) and for the pyramidal organizational structures of the military, police, business, etc...or, in other words, all of the material... but not for the spiritual and not even for the intellectual or the "decision-making" process. The democracy of "numbers" is a superior "decision-making" process to the dictatorial, totalitarian, or autocratic (pyramid) structure So I agree that a guru worth his salt would sent one to the "INTERNAL" guru and hence would FREE and not HOLD his disciples. Any truly Spiritual movement would have a "suicide" clause. In other words, it would set people "FREE" from desires, addictions to emotions, lusts, etc.. and eventually destroy the need for it's own existence. (ideally or course and way in the future...but we can put it in there NOW, in our thoughts) . Spiritual movements today are growing like cancers and not healing many if any at all. They are just like religions and cults: creation "divisions". I don't know of any spiritual or religious Leader who has "let his disciples" go... But they may be out there...I HOPE... But I know of many who don't gather "disciples" or followers. I also agree with Shakti that although most religions that we hear of and see today are 'pyramidal" or "hierarchical", I see the Protestant Reformation, that really took a major power block away from the Autocratic" Structure of Roman Church as a movement towards the "democratization", and hence the emergence of a more circular/spherical structure in some of the western "religions" (Christian) if not the "eastern" Churches who remained "orthodox". This Reformation movement also set into freer motion, the age of REASON. I also see the native "circles" as a "spherical" structure where the center of the circle is a "FIRE" and all the points on the circle have an equal (ideally) value. There is no preferred spot on the circumference of the circle. In the direction of the fire, one can go as close as one can stand the heat...or get out of the kitchen...lol. The Native structure we see today is the "white man's" structure. I see the world rapidly changing and I see the Internet, this great revolution that empowers the last missing LINK, the COMMONER, (the amateur, US) as a agent of "Quickening" of the transformation process of the carbon-based entity called man and other such elementals. We are at the step of "REVEALING". It is in our consciousness or our "light body" that we want to rest our "hope", not in the materialistic pyramidal or religious structures with it's "mind numbing" and "spirit densing" rituals and "obedience". We will soon be un-recognizable as a species and the taking control of our "lowly" (as in chakra or the red end of the spectrum) survival but addictive emotions will just make another great story or song of "evolution" at the future school of LIFE .... I think that is what the "Aquarian Conspiracy" is all about...We will all get there without actually "conspiring" consciously but it is an inherent evolution of the process of LIFE... Thanks for your wise and thoughtful and thought provoking words... 4d-don
Shakti Das Registered User (8/29/07 4:59 pm) Reply	Blessed Be -- Akkadian wisdom stories Chris said: Quote: "I wonder if maybe we couldn't look now to the positive highest forms of Guru Yoga? " Well it should be obvious by now if the causes and conditions that prevent the lowest and most disastrous forms of guru yoga are not removed there is little hope that the best form of guru yoga can be performed. There's little sense about talking about the way to practice yoga as there exist 100 such good books on the market readily available for those who are so intent. I certainly don't feel posting quotes from our gurus has much to do about guru yoga either. As Darlene said the true guru is the one who lifts the veil of darkness and thus guru yoga is the practice that brightens the light (inner wisdom). In advanced guru yoga practices (dare i mention them) you visulaize yourself both as the yidam and the guru, but i do not dare mention this because the newbie will think that I am talking about the ego (which is of course the opposite case). Quote: "It can be direct to God, to any deity- Shiva, Kali, Durga, Tara, Ma. There is something very beautiful and transendent- at the very least temporarily- that can happen in such devotion." I think you may be confusing guru yoga with guru seva? Also the worship of Tara, Kali, Siva, etc,, is not guru yoga. Rather yidam practice is tantra and devotional practice is bhakti yoga. Guru yoga implies something very different This is not to say that worship of the ishta devata, yidam, or devotional practices is bad or good, but at least in the tantric systems guru yoga is a very specific practice with specific aims (as I assume you know). Again I won't go into it here because it will be seen in the limited context of an ego surrendering to another ego, neither of which is a valuable concept. Both processes may remove or reduce ego pride but teh processes are very different and the overall effects are different also. Yes, I agree I have never gotten much from jnana yoga except maybe in the very beginning. It is in analyzing all the problems inherent in guru yoga -- the assumption that an aspirant can effectively surrender to some other being and be taken care of -- i think there are many. Chris asks: Quote: "So what's all the fuss about?" That's why I like 4d Don's intelligent posts on this subject. It's not just in Christianity, Islam or Hinduism that some people have been exploited but personality cults in general have created much abuse be they claim religious justification or other. The psychology behind that is very interesting also. So i will not dismiss Don as simply being angry. Rather i assume that he is generally compassionate and cares that no one else be sucked into these travesties. (not sure if Saja Marg is the wosre offender though). To that end I think an inquiry as to why people get involved that way in the first place is very much on topic -- very cogent. Don. Wow! I love it! Bears repeating! Quote: "Spirituality has a ring of "no ritual, no structure, no buildings"...just like the native spirituality who have no "churches" but are "OUT OF DOORS" and where the Shaman is not revered as a GURU....There are no yearly "pilgrimmages" to or worship of the Shaman. My dad could be called a shaman, but he was just a simple man with some "gifts" that he said, we all have but most don't realize....lol ;-)) There are conspiracies out there, especially when one mixes nationalism with tribal (pyramidal or hierarchical) religions and/or the mis-organized and mis-named pyramidal spiritual movements that are really cults of material "individuals" and not spirituality at all. To obey to the point of "immorality" is not spirituality. To repeat "I am a slave of my desires" daily is not spiritual and not even "intellectually" wise if we understand the value of "positive imaging" and we understand the words of Vivekananda and his Master Ramakrishna who called this practice "silly". He was kind. Arranged Marriages are not "spiritual". If spirituality has any value in controlling the emotions, it should also polish the "intellect" to a logical gem, and not spew the grossness of "Seeking the Great Morality by being "immoral" as some Gurus who demand unquestioning "obedience" to any point, even immorality or criminality." Yes I agree, human community is at best catching up to the big community of all our relations. I take that this aberration stems from fear of mortality, fear of his animal nature being part of creation versus apart from it. Let me qualify that I am not saying that man is a physical body only, rather that his presence on the planet is due to embodiment and the embodiment process. If man doesn't wake up to that reality, then he will disembody (mass extinction. So here I am saying that man must first embrace nature and the process and nature of embodiment or he will perish. When he fully embraces that process then he will both know where he came from, what created him, and for what purpose. Without that man is a bastard searching for substitute answers of which immortality and immorality are just two, So this fear of death (because he does not know the source of life) man then calims war on death by claiming war on life and nature which gives rise to the notion than man can control nature and wilderness (that being the enemy). Man can be ego king and ruler hence the warrior kings and hierarchies designed to reward smarmy sycophants -- those willing to kill for the king, indulge him, serve him and lie for him including the traditions of church and state has proved to be self destructing. We could go all the way back to Sumer to the Gilgamesh Epic carved in stone to tell this story and how and why he killed Enkidu (Enkimdu, Eabani, or Enkita.), his best friend and penultimate wild-man. What a great wisdom tale and paralleled in many other indigenous stories preceding the Akkadian Dynasty. I just take this as our history -- that we were not taught as lads. So many lies that disempower men, that make then servants to external authority, that strip them of their innate wisdom, of their self worth, and of their power! I am witnessing an end to that travesty -- that assumption that security and immortality can be found through conquering nature and wilderness and the end to those institutions that cater to the surrender/repression of our primordial wisdom of which authoritarian religious hierarchies are certainly a symptom if not a willing exploitive partner. So to return to spirit is a return to our primordial roots and well springs and then empower self actualization here on the planet in this very body. That's what a good teaching/teacher does. They don't point to self or their lineage, but to the teacher within and empowers that seed - helps it to ripen -- cracks it open -- wakes them up! What I see in you is a radical honesty -- great compassion. Great passion! The egg of wisdom and light cracking open! Thank you! Quote: "I also see the native "circles" as a "spherical" structure where the center of the circle is a "FIRE" and all the points on the circle have an equal (ideally) value. There is no preferred spot on the circumference of the circle. In the direction of the fire, one can go as close as one can stand the heat...or get out of the kitchen...lol. The Native structure we see today is the "white man's" structure. I see the world rapidly changing and I see the Internet, this great revolution that empowers the last missing LINK, the COMMONER, (the amateur, US) as a agent of "Quickening" of the transformation process of the carbon-based entity called man and other such elementals. We are at the step of "REVEALING". JAI MA! "Another world is possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day I can hear her breathing." — Arundhati Roy