Discussion by Don on Other Communities

Chris Crumb Registered User (8/7/07 10:17 pm) Reply	Just do it Do not worry too much about the way you are meditating, but meditate: think permanently during the sitting that the divine light is in your heart, is your heart. Our mind cannot stop thinking, so we have to select what we are thinking about. Please ignore what others are saying about what they feel or do not feel and persevere to get your own experience in the matter. Taken from The Spider's Web, vol. 3, p. 115 –Rev. Chariji
4d don Registered User (8/8/07 1:31 pm) Reply | Edit	Spider's Web Hi all... SPIDER's WEB indeed! It does matter how one meditates and who "one obeys" or bows to, but obviously not in the Sahaj Marg faction, registered in California in 1997, where Chari, retired mill-manager, has made "obedience" the main feature of Sahaj Marg, not the "meditation" which they falsely claim is a modified "raja yoga". Sahaj Marg also claims that their "transmission" is unique although they received it from the "sufi" lineage of which Lalaji, who only met Babuji a few times when babuji was 18 yrs old, was a Master. 13 years later, in his 30's, Babuji claimed via a "dream" to be the "successor" of Lalaji, although Lalaji had a succession of his own already. Babuji also claimed the "transmission" as "unique" to Sahaj Marg. All lies. Sufism was practicing "heart to heart" transmission for centuries before. Two on one heart will give one a "head rush" so Sahaj Marg claims it to be spiritual and even "divine". We all transmit to one another (heat, light, sound, etc)...that is how we attract our friends and mates. Try it out...Christians have used the confession (forginess of sins), and the Prayer Room the same way. It does not mean it's TRUE and that the sins are really forgiven...it just means that the "slave" feels good...and becomes "dependent", just like an "addict". The Sahaj Marg Prayer which in his "autobiography" Babuji, the founder of Sahaj Marg, said he received in "inspiration" from Swami Vivekananda is another example of the "silliness" of Sahaj Marg. Vivekananda and Ramakrishna, Vivekananda's Master (in one of the many books by Romain Rolland) said (paraphrased): It is silly to keep repeating what one does not want (such as "we are slaves"), thinking that anything but what one is repeating will come to pass. If one wants to be FREE, one must stop saying one is a "slave" and start saying that one is "FREE", just like an adult. It's called "positive imaging". The Prayer is addressed to the Master, not the Divine, because: The daily prayer…(to the Guru) O Master! Thou art the real goal of human life; We are yet but slaves of wishes putting bar to our advancement. Thou art the only God and power to bring us up to that stage. To Whom is the Mission Prayer Addressed and Why Babuji himself has written that ultimately He (pointing upwards) is the real Master . . . and all the human Masters who come on this world, on this earth, are His representatives. If that is so, then why do we address the prayer, "Oh, Master" and not "Oh, God". Now today I am giving you the answer for that. Because God, it is a living God who is before you in the form of the Master ...this is an embodied flesh-and-blood divinity . . . who can understand our needs; who can understand our temperaments; who can sympathize with us, being human himself; who can accept our failings, perhaps having failed himself in some way . . . So the Sahaj Master is a "flesh and blood" divinity!! Want to buy a bridge? The divisions in Sahaj Marg is a great example of their "UNITY", ONE-ness, and "DIVINITY". NOT!!! Be ready to be "slaves" all your life...there are no "liberated" souls in Sahaj Marg and none that have returned from "the brighter world", and shown the system to work. The Book Whispers from the Brighter World (sold at $250.00 US), is channelled by an "anonymnous" French Lady (not Chari..Why not?). Chari claims it is Babuji, Chari's mother and other elevated souls "sending the messages". That is the "Spider's Web"...Sahaj Marg is now "SPIRITUALISM", not spirituality. Even the Master of Sahaj Marg is a slave to his desires (money, power,etc) as he did not even accept the desires of his Master and his organization when they refused him the 'Mastership" but re-registered the same name (he is accused of forging his letter of succession by the founder's family) in California in 1997. The original founder's family is still claiming the ownership of the SAHAJ Marg and the case is still in Supreme Court of India. Does our Taxation department know that? Which SRCM is "tax-exempt"? Research before joining and just swallowing these "WORDS"... Turn off your TV...Stop believing the "come-on's" of the businessmen of RELIGION, the Televangelists (businessmen) from India, and find the ONE on your own....The USA representative (S. Khanjee) is president/owner of LOTUS Hotels in Texas. SRCM is good for the tourism industry. SRCM recently purchased a 28 acre ranch near Austin for retreats from the "money making" pressures. Sahaj Marg is usurped from Sufism and then Chari is now trying to acquire (stealing?) Sahaj Marg from Babuji's family!...Can that lead to ONE or UNITY? Not if Sahaj Marg or the Shri Ram Chandra Mission is an example. SRCM is sorely "DIVIDED"...Will it do anything but be another RELGIOUS division or be a "harmful sect" as the Belge and French Goverment has called it. Let's not even get into it's "apocalyptic" aspect of SRCM and Sahaj Marg, with a "special Personality" (Babuji?) who is to "destroy part of the "COSMOS" according to Chari...Women are not capable of such destruction and so they can't be MASTER in Sahaj Marg...ONLY MEN! Women are workers, breeders, proselytizers and MEN are the MASTERS... Sound familiar?? 4d-don
Chris Crumb Registered User (8/8/07 9:06 pm) Reply	Re: Spider's Web Dear Don...hello. Hope you get over your major anger trip. All the best.
4d don Registered User (8/11/07 1:57 pm) Reply | Edit	LOGIC or ANGER in Ruthless Sahaj Marg Hi ALL... Being a creature of "white light", I have the ability to use the blue end of intellect and/or the red end of emotions and all the colors in between. The ONE made us that way and it is for a reason. I accept REALITY as it is and will not change the ONE nor ITS PLAN. Those who would stop you from using, or getting you to attempt to "eliminate" the "red" end of your spectrum are not "intellectual" in their material and in their methods, and have trapped you into the docility of "doing nothing" but "obey" like a child. Religions all do that!! These new Invaders (Master of the UNIVERSE) also use "RELIGION"... After me, the archangels!!... And it won't be "LOGICAL". I am just preparing the way and exposing the "scandals" with "logic" and intellect and that is what you would call "anger". Wait and SEE! Babuji's family know the ruthlessness and the ANGER of the new "OWNERS" of Sahaj Marg... If LOGIC and WORDS do not work, then the next steps taken by the next genetaion of "illogicals", will leave no doubt....Sahaj Marg does not raise the "intellectual" bar in people, but "denses" the population. Read the historical experience of the "sudras" (black slaves brought from Sudan) from Southern India, with the Brahmin caste. When you see ANGER, it will be a much harsher reality than these words. Try and call "anger", the way SRCM adepts (150 of them) have allegedly attacked the "Ashram" and allegedly beat on Umesh's (Babuji's son) wife and the "guardian". (according to Navneet, Babuji's grandson)... Maybe tell your MASTER to call off his angry "DOGS"...That is not SPIRITUAL or INTELLECT or LOGICAL but that is ANGER.... Nationalists, as the leadership of Sahaj Marg and SRCM are, mostly from the Brahmin caste and from the old feudal families who are trying to retake their country after having lost it to the Monghols, the Arabs, the Moslems, (Pakistan, Bagladesh, Kashmir), the British, apparently have the right to use ANGER and they do...Give us (the peaceful but not docile Canadians) the same right so as to defend ourselves. We will take that right anyway and will not ask permission from invading strangers, even religious invaders or self-called MASTERS. Lalaji's family was given 555 villages by the Monghols for their support and for supplying a Military via taxes. All Spiritual of course..;-)) ...sort of like Christianity and Islam!! Chari is giving control (appointing) of "tax-exempt" SRCM Canada to his "cronies"...Look at your Board of Directors. Oh Yes! there are a few "token" Canadians who then claim that all the money raised in Canada, stays in Canada...Check that out! Dare to ask! Look for numbers that "disappear"... The reality of LIFE is that we are an Intellectual and an Emotional life form. I chose intellect and logic first as I am a "civilized" person. But the REALITY of LIFE says that I have the ability to use ANGER just like everyone, including MASTERS. As we are made that way by the ONE, you or Sahaj Marg will not change that in yourself nor in others....The docile will be the "slaves" and the "fodder" for the "invading" angry and ruthless MASTERS who would use all of their "SPECTRUM"...If Sahaj Marg wants peace, they can stay home (India) and MEDITATE and stop using VIOLENCE and ANGER....(ALLEGED and in court). If Sahaj Marg "leaders" were "intellectuals, we could converse...That is not the case. Obedience is not synonymous with LOGICAL! It means "DO NOT QUESTION THE MASTER" (and their families or representatives). Try and explain to the Gay and Lesbian community why Sahaj Marg MASTERS think that their "lifestyle" (gays and lesbians) are "un-natural" and why their Canadian Constitution guaranteed "rights" are an abuse of Human Rights Legislation. Talk to Chari before that community hears of that oppression and begins targeting the "fundamentalism" that is SAHAJ MARG. That is "tax exempt" in this country? Tell your friends you obey and support that "fundamentalist" GURU! I guess you don't have gay friends...They are "marginalized" in Sahaj Marg. Love all but avoid the angry and the GAYS eh? On Women's rights and Homosexuality Sahaj Marg is no better than Christian or Islamic Fundamentalism...What's next, Lalaji created the UNIVERSE in six days....Maybe Stockwell Day (a fundamentalist government Minister), could become an abhyasi?? ;-)) 4d-don
noswrite Registered User (8/11/07 9:56 pm) Reply	Re: LOGIC or ANGER in Ruthless Sahaj Marg Hi Don, All I know of the things you write about, are what you’ve written. And I’ve read everything you’ve written in this thread. I understand that you consider a particular organization to be corrupt, though I have trouble linking up your references such as logic and ruthless anger. I know nothing of this organization, thus have no interest in it other than your involvement. I’m about as impartial a reader as you will find on this topic. But I hear your passion, your intelligence and intensity. Perhaps a tinge of bitterness, quite understandable from hard experience. And as I understand it, your intent is to advise caution by encouraging an impartial, dispassionate evaluation by any who may be considering becoming a part of this, or a similar, organization ... though I don’t know what a similar organization might be. But I am most willing to listen to your comments, and do listen, and am interested in a cohesive over-view of what’s going on, and the sources of your information, should it be your inclination to spend the time and energy required for such a writing.
Chris Crumb Registered User (8/12/07 8:46 am) Reply	Patience Quote: I guess you don't have gay friends... I have lots of gay friends. Did you know that scientists have observed when we are angry that a chemical is produced in the brain which temporarily lowers our IQ? Quote: We need to cultivate patience even if we have no interest in spiritual development because, without it, we remain vulnerable to anxiety, frustration and disquiet. If we lack patience, it is difficult for us to maintain peaceful relationships with others. Patient is the opponent to anger, the most potent destroyer of virtue. We can see from our own experience how much suffering arises from anger. It prevents us from judging a situation correctly, and it causes us to act in regretable ways. It destroys our peace of mind and disturbs everyone else we meet. Even people who are normally attracted to us will be repelled when they see us angry. Anger can make us reject or insult our own parents, and, when it is intense, it can even drive us to kill the people we love, or even to take our own life. Usually anger is triggered off by something quite insignificant, such as a comment that we take personally, a habit that we find irritating, or an expectation that was not fulfilled. Based on such small experiences, anger weaves an elaborate fantansy, exaggerating the unpleasantness of the situation, and providing rationalizations and justifications for the sense of dissapointment, outrage, or resentment. It leads us to do harmful things, therebye causing offence to others and transforming a small difficulty into a great problem. If we were asked, 'Who caused all the wars in which so many people have have died?', we would have to reply that they were caused by angry minds. If nations were full of calm, peace-loving people, how could wars ever arise? Anger is the greatest enemy of living beings. It harmed us in the past, it harms us now, and, if we do not overcome it through the practice of patience, it will continue to harm us in the future. As Shantideva says: ...this enemy of anger has no function Other than to harm me. External enemies harm us in slower and less subtle ways. If we practice patience with them, we can even win them over and turn them into our friends; but there can be no reconciliation with anger. If we are lenient with anger, it will take advantage of us and harm us even more. Moreover, whereas external enemies can harm us only in this life, anger harms us in many future lives. Therefore, we need to eliminate anger as soon as it enters our mind because, if we do not, it will quickly become a blazing fire that consumes our merit. Patience, on the other hand, helps us in this life and in all future lives. As Shantideva says: There is no evil greater than anger And no virtue greater than patience. With patience, we can accept any pain that is inflicted upon us, and we can easily endure our usual troubles and indispositions. With patience, nothing upsets our peace of mind and we do not experience problems. With patience, we maintain an inner peace and tranquility that allows spiritual reaizations to grow. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Edited by: Chris Crumb at: 8/12/07 12:02 pm
4d don Registered User (8/13/07 9:37 pm) Reply | Edit	Re: Patience Hi all... Thanks for the comments Nosewrite...Could not disagree with anything you say... Chris, the level of IQ in Sahaj Marg that allows statements as I quoted above is not theologicall or morally elevated or Calm or of a High IQ. I would state that such descrimination shows a lot of suppressed "anger" and not "love your neighbour as yourself". Statement by Chari, such as: "God is Male", or "Women can't be Masters" because they are not "destructive" to the point needed for such destruction and that, by implication, that Masters are, are signs of low or un-developped and machievelian and macho, logic or of a "low IQ". Even the statement of Chari to the "corruption" of the Hindu and Christian churches and their "bribing of God" or their inability to "forgive sins" in confession, also shows a lack of tolerance that they then want from others. In Europe, these days, the citizenry is saying: TOLERANCE FOR THE TOLERANT. I agree with all the statements of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and don't see how they apply to me in this particular instance as what I desire is not to "ban such groups" but to challenge their "tax exempt" status in all countries, as long as they make statements that could be shown to be "anti constitutional". SRCM's status in UN DPI program is also logically questionable as they are a "theocracy" and a "pyramid" or a totalitarian organization with all the power self-vested in the Master as PRESIDENT for life. UN demands that their affiliates be "democratic". The Jehovah's Witnesses was the last "religion" to "voluntarily" pull out their request for membership, rather than adhere to the UN guidelines. SRCM's statements on Women, Gays and other religions and lack of democracy, as it is understood by most countries, makes it a "deliquent" member and it should have it's membership revoked. To offer "medical services" to its members does not make SRCM a "charity". It only targets "high profile" media events to donate to and is not a "genuine" Charity. Sahaj Mart adepts are more concerned about their own "spiritual" progress than about the plight of the Poor in India or the world and "cleaning" your "past samskaras" does not count as "environmental work" as some claim. SRCM does not adhere to the basic standards for "open " disclosures that is needed to live up to the spirit of the Charities laws. Even the Televangelists are more transparent. I am not angry but I will not lie down and let these "cons" target the children with their "Boarding Schools", in my family without "speaking out" with words...first...Then with other "legal" means. The divisions and the allegations between the founding father's family and the current "Master" and his re-registering the society in California and Texas should raise the "red flag" of any thinking person, not just an "angry" victim. Most victims just go away and lick their wounds as the media of the past, was not easy to access. Now we have the "internet" .... We can be heard and have our say. That is all I am doing...getting my say with the TRUTH as I see it.... I make no claims to represent anyone but myself... unlike the "OTHERS" who want me to "obey" them!! I am not in their town, country, they are in mine breaking and abusing our laws... The family of the founder is even making "criminal" allegation such as "poisonning" etc. I already know the success (or failure) rate of Chari's arranged marriages.... I will expose... I will protect the "oppressed", the gays, the "gullible", the women, my grand-daughters, and other religions, in my town and my country and not support the "oppressor"... I AM CANADIAN!! lol ;-)) Angry and "nationalists" is what THEY are, as they attack the Ashram controlled by the family's founder and beat the mother and a custodian, and they are trying to regain their past power status by "sucking" power from other countries. They show a "public image" and it fools most. Actors do it all the time. The fantasy is more sale-able than REALITY. Sahaj Marg, can just deliver on the UNITY of SPIRITUALITY that they promise and sell, by uniting their own society and groups and factions and castes... before they sell that UNITY of SPIRITUALITY... Don
noswrite Registered User (8/14/07 10:57 am) Reply	Re: Patience Hi Don, Hmmm. Perhaps you may find something to disagree with here? You may not have noticed, but the spelling is noswrite, not nosewrite ... and though I do have a prominent proboscis, the screen name I chose for this board refers to the Latin translation of nos into the English we (or us), as in ... WeWrite. Us. You and I. So, here’s what we have written, you and I, and Chris too. Though righteous and fervent anger exists within the spectrum of humanness, its release in the spirit of amorphous incoherence can by found in any child’s tantrum, which after awhile can “make me a headache,” (as one of my boys used to say). Though anger expressed as amorphous incoherence may attract a few of the curious, it will do so for only for awhile, though the sympathetic or fanatical may linger longer. For righteous and fervent anger to be heard in these modern days of media-overload that competes for my attention (for like many I’ve heard and seen a lot), the message, whether presented as entertaining humor, wit, or point-by-point logic, needs to be presented with a man’s, or a woman’s, laser focus. Anger can own you, or serve you. I could care less about the message of anger. Anger is a common thing, found anywhere. Any particular anger is no more special than any other. If the intent is to be heard, then ... Why should I contribute my time for the reason of your need to be heard? What does your need to be heard do for me, especially when the sun and sky and breeze of a beautiful August day calls out Mark, Mark, we miss you out here? And, though you may label me as uncompassionate, or obscured by the veils of ignorance for feeling no need to hear you, that doesn’t get you heard, does it. If you can compel me to listen, then your odds of being heard increase. Here are two methods of presenting a message that compel me to listen. 1. not suitable for women. 2. suitable for all, even children.
4d don Registered User (8/14/07 1:03 pm) Reply | Edit	Re: Patience Hi Noswrite... Sorry about the typo (I studied latin)...thanks for the comment. I have no need to be heard...I just want the info out there in case anyone needs it in the future. The need is not on me but I fill the future needs of others. Just like a "Danger" sign on the highway....It does not fullfill a need in the "signer" but fills the possible future needs for information by a Sign reader (signee). If I place a "danger sign" on the Highway because of my "desire" to be a good citizen after having been "negatively impacted" by an event or a circumstance, and do not just save myself from that danger, but think of others who come after me, then I am not concerned if others do not need or read my sign. My duty has been fulfilled and I can rest peacefully as having been a "good citizen". I would call that "spiritual" because it is as NATURE gives..TO all regardless of their Moral status, class, religion, gender, age, etc... It is a gift much like the "SUNSHINE" or the wind and rain. Mine is a testimonial and a research on a topic that had almost no info (one source in France) beside the "company" PR, pryor to my blogs and comments on other's blogs. Now there are many who have responded to my "COMMENTS", including the family of the founder, the families of members of other "schisms" of this group and other "ex-inner circle" members who have left or have been "pushed" out by this "faction" of businessmen who took over a small (200 abhyasis) meditation group and made it more of a "nationalist" movement and a cult of a person than the original intent of the founder for a "spiritual" movement. Thanks for your comments...I am on dial-up so the links are not available to me (no streaming). Walk in the sunshine and don't worry about my info unless you need it. REALITY is outside and inside and also on the (virtual) NET also....YOU CHOSE your place in it with my blessing...;-)) Don Edited by: 4d don at: 8/14/07 1:14 pm
noswrite Registered User (8/14/07 1:46 pm) Reply	Re: Patience “this "faction" of businessmen who took over a small (200 abhyasis) meditation group and made it more of a "nationalist" movement and a cult of a person than the original intent of the founder for a "spiritual" movement.” Hi Don, This is good information, it begins to put a perspective to your postings. You have a good balance and a kind nature, my intent in recent postings is to give you feedback to perhaps benefit you in honing your message regarding this specific topic, should you find my input of use. I don’t mind about the nosewrite thing, my response was kinda tongue-in-cheek, as I think you know. About the two videos ... sorry you didn’t get a chance to see them. 1. Is a clip from the movie, Glengarry Glen Ross, written by the brilliant David Mamet. If you’ve seen the movie, it’s where the businessman/salesman played by Alec Baldwin gives a hard-nosed motivational speech to some salesmen. Old school, hard-ass, fear-based ... but also, an excellent example of total focus upon a singular intent - selling for the company. Whether one loves it, hates it, agrees or disagrees with the content, the clip holds fascination and provokes contemplation, radiates samsara, and it’s quite admirable as a piece of dialogue ... the character quite obviously is practically vibrating with anger and he channels this into controlled, focused speech. It’s a clip that probably sparks recognitions of life examples for many of us, or at least some of us. 2. This clip is a cartoon, ostensibly written for children. It’s a spoof on the Snow White story, in which the dwarfs are con artists.
4d don Registered User (8/21/07 1:10 pm) Reply | Edit	Re: Arranged Marriages...Spirituality? To All who think Guru Yoga is Divine... Arranged Marriages Targeting Western girls This is from a distraught mother of a new abhyasis of Sahaj Marg (24 yr old girl) in France... (From Elodie's Blog" (Pour Que Vive le Sahaj Marg) in France.../www.blogger.com/comment....7332492791 Monique said: My daughter returned. She went to celebrate the birthday of the guru as you had said! But what did they do to her??? SHE BECAME COMPLETELY INSANE!!! At the beginning all went well. She radiated and was charmed by her stay in India. I believed in a miracle. They had transformed my daughter. Except that it did not answer any of my questions about the sect. And then 3 days ago she became suddenly hysterical. She said to me that she was going to return to marry there (India)! ...that they had introduced somebody to her TO MARRY HER!!!. Now she is locked up in her room. She does not un-clench her teeth. She is depressed again. But what did they do to her there (India)? WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE? Monique This is what Sahaj Marg has become...Babuji (and/or his family) could help this French family. Where are the PRECEPTORS? Why do they come to US? Welcome to The New World ORDER of Sahaj Marg. Sahaj Marg, the MacDonald's of Spirituality is really Spiritualism and nationalism...not SPIRITUALITY... Don...
Shakti Das Registered User (8/27/07 1:19 am) Reply	God Bless the Child who has his own I may be off track here, but an observation for what it's worth. I notice that some people tend to be authoritarian prone if not addicted. That is that they are attracted to authoritarian types which perhaps offers them a sense of order, control, meaning, and security that they other wise have not found within. Granted this can increase external attachment to external authoritarian systems and thus the individual who so becomes attached/addicted certainly risks being controlled and manipulated. In those type of systems/situations an inordinate amount of importance is put toward obedience, faith, loyalty, and belief. Then on the other hand or opposite situation, other people may be the opposite; i.e., rebellious and healthfully skeptical of external authority and top down totalitarian systems. I think that this maturation process requires the individual to at least at one time in their life, question all hand-me-down beliefs and thus hone their innate ability for discernment and critical thought. Once that is established then confidence that they can find out for themselves is also established. Once one has gone through this rebellious state (a necessary disillusionment process from Santa Claus myths, etc.) then creative thought can take hold (from the inside out). There one does not crave outside direction or help or at least is not afraid of it since it poses no threat -- no possibility of exploitation, abuse, or addiction. However I also observe a third tendency, which is, people who waver back and forth from perfect trust, loyalty, obedience, and belief in an authoritarian character, structure, and/or belief system one day, and then on another day, express complete rebelliousness (sometimes accompanied by cynicism, despair, nihilism, resentment, or depression). Then the next day one's faith is renewed and trust and belief in "the system" is complete. Then the following day, more rebelliousness and cynicism, etc. I expect there is a name for this syndrome? Anyway i expect that there is a lot insecurity and fear due to lack of self confidence in people who are subjected to authoritarian people and systems and . My heart goes out to them. May they be led to their own creative power so that it may be activated and renewed! Quote: Artist: Amboog-A-Lard Winds God bless the child who has his own. But all creation isn't carved in stone. People are blind and they can't decide. Path of destruction leads to mindless suicide.. Mother looks but she'll never see, All the abuse, why don't we just set her free!!! We are trapped in a fortress of insanity. Life's potential, lost to hypocrisy. Aggravation turning to aggression, slipping slowly Into repression. We can look and we can see, The winds of change must set her free. Leave her be!! The winds of change, lost!!, in irony. Breaking down the walls of hate and all of those who separate. Segregation, civil war, tearing down confining doors. The fall of solidarity, burn the flag, set me free. Time for change, disengage, now its time to Rearrange, my life. Necessity!! Necessity!! Conformity!! Conformity!! Uniformity of their policy!! Sanity!! Sanity!! Insanity!! Insanity!! Deformity of what's meant to be!! Donny "Another world is possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day I can hear her breathing." — Arundhati Roy Edited by: Shakti Das at: 8/27/07 1:26 am
Chris Crumb Registered User (8/27/07 9:55 am) Reply	Blessed Child I think there is a lot of truth in what you wrote. Just to add there are folks I have met who seem simply to stick with their Guru and it never seems to be a big issue for them, like it's not a big deal, it's just what they do...they claim it is easy for them because they need guidance, don't know what is best for them and want that guidance which they say keeps them on the path.
yogini db Registered User (8/27/07 10:04 am) Reply	Re: Blessed Child Quote: I notice that some people tend to be authoritarian prone if not addicted. That is that they are attracted to authoritarian types which perhaps offers them a sense of order, control, meaning, and security that they other wise have not found within. this says so much, donny. not finding "meaning" within.... wow, that is incredibly sad.
Shakti Das Registered User (8/27/07 3:46 pm) Reply	Re: Blessed Child Many different mindsets. One may feel safe and secure in a tight ordered external structure, while another may feel stifled and feel a need to break free and explore new territory. Darlene, I think we agree that this can be a very tragic trap -- a bond that many people never escape from stemming from an inner emptiness to be sure. Maybe better to say repression. In general those prone toward obedience upon a highly structured and strong authoritarian character with its accouterments of structured belief systems, socio-political ideology, and/or religious dogma are on the rise both in religious fundamentalist movements and political totalitarianism (state terrorism) where “security state” becomes the euphemism for police state (prison). Indeed these people who go along with such have to be very insecure, afraid, and even terrified – all of which are products of confusion and attachment – a disconnect from their inner/innate order/meaning or wisdom. Those who have not learned to think for themselves or worse that thinking for oneself is somehow evil or bad, like free thought is a rebellion from God, family, and fatherland ... well they are fxxked from an early age. So what I observe despite the manipulation, abuse, and exploitation being perpetuated upon its members in various sects and systems, too often there the need to place trust, obedience, loyalty, faith, and belief in the system even increases, rather than the trust and confidence within the human being. Actually trusting one’s own feelings becomes counter to the goals of the system, is viewed as dangerous, and is discouraged or punished. So if it is a dysfunctional family with a strong authority figure who dispenses authority and “worth” upon his/her worthy disciples or if it is a religious or social/political authoritarian structure, the disempowerment of the human being’s ability to think critically is necessary, let alone to think creatively. That has to become repressed/inhibited it seems in order for the authoritarian system to “function” dysfunctionally. So the mathematical goes like this. The more fear, confusion, and insecurity, then the more these confused people cling to systems that promise them security, order, and protection. Hence a successful formula for any totalitarian wannabe, despot, dictator, scapegoat, pope or warrior king/god. Just rattle the cages and frightened people will tend to grab on more tightly! So what happens is that for the faithful, abuse and exploitation remains ignored or denied, where those who may talk about it are decried and further extricated, marginalized or expelled. Since power and control over others is a sure sign of corruption in the first place, corruption and abuse will occur. For some “members”/subscribers this takes the form of a schizoid wavering back and forth, whether or not the “rumors” are true or not? I can’t condone that, to it’s just lies, I’ll ignore that. The opposite of that blind faith and obedience (often called loyalty) is disillusionment. Oh God we were mislead! The often blame is reverted to rather than taking responsibility. After the blame game is over with, they just join another authoritarian group or leader (psychological transference), thus the syndrome is repeated again – names and faces change but the dynamic karma is the same. Now I am not saying that this is true with all groups or communities but only with authoritarian structures dominated by authoritarian personalities. For example one joins an authoritarian church because one’s own self authority is shot or none existence (severely repressed). One gains self worth only when it is bequeathed (when one does what one’s superiors expect of them). It is very clear what is expected of them so they then know what to do. Then they are rewarded with authority. Such systems are inherently hierarchical. Finally maybe if they are faithful, good, loyal, and obedient to the cause, they are given authority themselves to lord over others. Of course at all times one’s own self worth is determined by the security and image of the church or structure, hence an inordinate amount of energy and attention is given to the upkeep of the organization’s image, security, and well being. In the opposite type of community (call it egalitarian) based on equanimity and self empowerment, the structure of the organization is built around self empowerment; i.e., empowering the creative spirit in action. There intuition, inner wisdom, and the dormant innate teacher is recognized, encouraged and brought forward as a co-creative self actualization process. Instead of being hierarchical or authoritarian, these type of communities can be recognized by their decentralized expressions of equanimity (power and wisdom is recognized and respected as innate in all sentient beings and life support systems), hence the entire community is consulted before action is undertaken, while action requires consensus. Thus the consensus process rectifies and ensures against any difficulties such as social alienation and crime preemptively. It would be an understatement really to say that such types of egalitarian communities obviously do not thrive in the context of contractions of the heart, suspicion, distrust, paranoia, insecurity, and fear. "Another world is possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day I can hear her breathing." — Arundhati Roy Edited by: Shakti Das at: 8/27/07 4:21 pm
Chris Crumb Registered User (8/27/07 11:28 pm) Reply	Re: Blessed Child Yes I see what you mean. What does this have to do with Guru Yoga? I'm not being glib, it is an honest question. You have read Autobiography of a Yogi yes? He had a Master. What he describes there is if I recall correctly quite beautiful. I mean really according to Yogi Bajhan Gu=Dark Ru=Light. 'Anything' that takes you from dark to light is a Guru. Or you know how about everyone is my Spiritual Guide, everything that happens...All is Spiritual Guide. Quote: Such systems are inherently hierarchical I'd say every religion I have ever encountered is heirachical. Heck society is heirachical, perhaps the whole world, structurally, politically speaking. In the west money is king. As one character in the movie Pulp Fiction says to the other something like "If you ain't got legal tender you're nobody." Sad this is the reality for many. Quote: It would be an understatement really to say that such types of egalitarian communities obviously do not thrive in the context of contractions of the heart, suspicion, distrust, paranoia, insecurity, and fear. True, but these feelings might arise for individuals from time to time and it would be the job of the community to ...well...what do you think such a community could do to help the afflicted? To help the mentally ill, the addicted for instance? Those victims of hatred, incest, addiction etc.? It's fine to have a loving supportive community but how would that look in action, in karma yoga terms?
Shakti Das Registered User (8/28/07 2:30 am) Reply	Re: Blessed Child Quote: "What does this have to do with guru yoga" Well really everything at least for me. Listen the short answer is that if you have no ego -- i mean really surrendered a lot then every thing and every being is your teacher. You are open and teachings come through all the time. Close that door and you are disconnected. Then you see a teacher as a separate being. The more closed off sentient beings are from their own source - which includes a lack of inner self confidence and self direction (inside out) (which also includes confsuion, fear, lack of self worth, meaning, and the rest of the kleshas), then the more they tend to follow authoritarian type teachers, fundamentalists, dogmatists, tightly structured faith based religion, and so forth -- "just tell me what to do". These sentient beings get their self worth according to how they fit in into the belief structure, the hierarchy, dogma, and authoritarian structure. It matters little to me if the organization is Islamic, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, or UFO -- it's the same dynamics. It doesn't matter either if it is a dogmatic socio-political authoritarian structure where one becomes attached to or not, rather the same factors of fear, confusion, insecurity, and conformnity are similarly at play IMO. These sentient beings are practicing guru yoga from ego, asking for direction from the guru be they a pope, priest, preacher, sheikh, swami, lama or president. It's obvious to me that many people who go to such teachers are chronically practicing transference -- of one authority figure or super ego to another. I'm not saying that this is bad or wrong of them, but just observing a very large phenomena as to causes and effects. Now I am not saying that this is the highest form of guru yoga but rather this is perhaps the most disastrous and limiting form. For example there is no mistaking that there exist fundamentalist political organizations not only in America, the Middle east and India, but throughout the planet. They have been on the rise lately. I think there is no denying it? So what I am saying is that even if one thinks that they have pure devotion (and I am certain that religious suicide bombers do have pure devotion and faith) this cab be seen as another form of guru yoga, albeit one that you and may not approve. These are just symptoms of people who have given up or have been deprived of their innate ability to think for themselves. In most cases even the act of thinking for oneself is declared sinful and rebellious by fundamentalists. That is why democracy and secular government is so dreadfully feared by such groups. So all because there are a few gurus like Yogi Bhajan who have tried to bring his students back into residing in the imperishable self inside, to teh Sat Guru who resides within all, many/most but not all of these so called gurus just keep on stringing their disciples out is my observation. So I can go to see a teacher now with no trepidation.fear, with complete surrender, because I feel totally grounded within my heart, but that wasn't true ten years ago In short the signs of a great teacher is one who points you back to your inner teacher and light. So I am commentating on authoritarian teachers and structures because they the mechanisms are so black and white -- transparent. It might not be your own of course, but just to support what 4dDon was saying to the effect that indeed its very attractive to many people simply to surrender to a strong external structure/teacher and do as they say -- father knows best. In the long run that can be a tragedy. My observation is that it can also be a syndrome where one wanders from one authoritarian structure to another, but never gets that inner flame lit. So sure we agree moving from darkness to light is what the true guru does -- that is the activity of the guru. But that does not mean that everyone who claims to be a guru actually does that. In some cases the opposite happens. Quote: "I'd say every religion I have ever encountered is heirachical. Heck society is heirachical, perhaps the whole world, structurally, politically speaking. In the west money is king. As one character in the movie Pulp Fiction says to the other something like "If you ain't got legal tender you're nobody." Sad this is the reality for many." This is a cynical and materialistic conclusion. Sorry I don't buy it. I don't live inside that movie -- thanks. It's just your conclusion. Are you holding onto it? Is it your story or somebody else? Quote: "It's fine to have a loving supportive community but how would that look in action, in karma yoga terms?" Well that's an excellent question.I have seen many excellent answers, but I don't think any of which will fit on this guru yoga thread Actually there are many books on this. As a living example the Okanagan tribe in BC have some thing going for them even today despite the colonization, rape, and empire building still going on all around them. Maybe the better question would be not how to build it, but how to keep the white man (or facsimile) from stealing all their resources? Maybe a new thread -- egalitarian spiritual communities would begin to touch the surface of this large altruistic endeavor where the heart and the body merge together and manifest in skillful means in integrity. Not unlike the bodhisattva ideal and going quote beyond simple material abundance, is a great book on this subject and truly inspiring is Daniel Quinn's Ishmael Keep the faith! Donny "Another world is possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day I can hear her breathing." — Arundhati Roy
yogini db Registered User (8/28/07 6:09 am) Reply	Re: Blessed Child Quote: In short the signs of a great teacher is one who points you back to your inner teacher and light. beautiful, donny. i couldn't agree more.
Chris Crumb Registered User (8/28/07 8:05 am) Reply	Re: Blessed Child Quote: This is a cynical and materialistic conclusion. Sorry I don't buy it. I don't live inside that movie -- thanks. It's just your conclusion. Are you holding onto it? Is it your story or somebody else? No I'd say it is just an observation based on my own exprience with religions I've encountered. The religions I've encountered are heirarchical to some extent or another. I don't live inside the movie I quoted either but many people do...I see a heirarchy as a construct, a creation of humans to organize other humans in some way to achieve an end, what the motivaion and the end wishing to be achieved is varies widley. It's interesting what you say to be sure, I agree with much of it, perhaps all of it but I might take it step farther then you did...but that is a different discussion, probably a private one. Also there is a whole other side to this Guru thing as we both agree, a way to go to a Lama, Guru, Master, Wican etc. without creating this heirarchical structure in the mind. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hie...ierarchies Social hierarchy Many human organizations, such as businesses, churches, armies and political movements are hierarchical organizations, at least officially; commonly seniors, called "bosses", have more power than their subordinates. Thus the relationship defining this hierarchy is "commands" or "has power over". (Some analysts question whether power "really" works as the traditional organizational chart indicates, however.) See also chain of command. I'd say 12 step groups and this place (MIS) are not heirarchical though...any organization which sets up an individual(s) to be elevated above the others creates a kind of heirarchy if one(s) are not careful. This can be spiritual based, money, sex, knowledge or power based. I'm sure there are other examples too, can't think of any others now, have to go. Edited by: Chris Crumb at: 8/28/07 8:34 am
Chris Crumb Registered User (8/28/07 7:17 pm) Reply	Re: Blessed Child/Jnana/Wisdom/Bhakti/Love/Surrender Quote: Now I am not saying that this is the highest form of guru yoga but rather this is perhaps the most disastrous and limiting form. Yes, it seems that over the history of this this thread many times the focus was on the lowest form of Guru yoga or on criticism of it ... I wonder if maybe we couldn't look now to the positive highest forms of Guru Yoga? Surely there are some who can speak to this too? You know how about the 'ideals' or the altruism of Love, Devotion, Surrender. It does not have to be to a human being if that freaks one out. It can be direct to God, to any deity- Shiva, Kali, Durga, Tara, Ma. There is something very beautiful and transendent- at the very least temporarily- that can happen in such devotion. Also one can come up again and again against the egos'refusal to surrener, refusal to love, refusal to devotion...in fact it's a great way, a kind of quick path, to finding out where you are at in terms of ego clinging in my humble opinion. I am a bit reticent to disuss my own experiences of it here though, as it is not always safe to do so, I feel one can become the object of criticism around such...I understand though, or at least I think I understand why, especially here in the west, where individualism is king, why these concepts- Love, Devotion and Surrender- to any Guru, whether human or not, is anathema to some and blessed for others. Guru yoga in yoga involves Bhakti (Devotion) Yoga and Karma Yoga or Seva (or can involve both.) It is very different from Jnana to be sure. Jnana involves a lot of discriminating wisdom, using of course the intellect, using the mind, thinking wisdom through disriminatory thinking, thinking deeply on things. It is cool in a sense as a quality, at least for me. This can be confounding to some, confusing, without juice, but for others it is clear, straight forward has the spark they enjoy. Bhakti is of the heart, is very warm, emotional if you like. Maybe a dangerous path for some, but for others, willing to follow the heart unceasingly, to find the truth in the heart, to unrelentlessly follow the muse, follow intuition, the Path Of Love, it can be very beautiful, fulfilling and lead to wisdom too. These are just some musings off the top of me head. Funny I think of science and logic when I think of Jnana, I think of the arts, particulary poetry, Blake comes to mind When I think of Bhakti. They have their different appeal... But perhaps ultimatley both contain the seeds of liberation. It's hard for a not yet enlightened chap to know... Then again...my heart tells me "no you do know" Jnana says 'how do you know and what?" Both can bring us there! For there is here now! There is no difference between you and I Ultimately we are all made of stardust! So what's all the fuss about?
4d don Registered User (8/28/07 7:54 pm) Reply | Edit	Re: Blessed Child Hi Shakti Das and Chris... I can't find anything to disagree with in Shakti's comments but I would add that authoritarianism is not always overt. Spirituality has a ring of "no ritual, no structure, no buildings"...just like the native spirituality who have no "churches" but are "OUT OF DOORS" and where the Shaman is not revered as a GURU....There are no yearly "pilgrimmages" to or worship of the Shaman. My dad could be called a shaman, but he was just a simple man with some "gifts" that he said, we all have but most don't realize....lol ;-)) There are conspiracies out there, especially when one mixes nationalism with tribal (pyramidal or hierarchical) religions and/or the mis-organized and mis-named pyramidal spiritual movements that are really cults of material "individuals" and not spirituality at all. To obey to the point of "immorality" is not spirituality. To repeat "I am a slave of my desires" daily is not spritual and not even "intellectually" wise if we understand the value of "positive imaging" and we understand the words of Vivekananda and his Master Ramakrishna who called this practice "silly". He was kind. Arranged Marriages are not "spiritual". If spirituality has any value in controlling the emotions, it should also polish the "intellect" to a logical gem, and not spew the grossness of "Seeking the Great Morality by being "immoral" as some Gurus who demand unquestionning "obedience" to any point, even immorality or criminality. Spirituality should mean relating to SPIRIT who's movements, in my mind, can be defined as spherical and/or spiral in all directions at once (scalar) and not in one direction (vectored) only. SPIRIT IS. Those geometric attributes if reversed, can allow or even create the logic for the fundamentalist MALE or FEMALE GOD, which in reality, to be ONE, should be ALL or BOTH so as to the called the ONE (Vivekananda). It (the spirit) would not have, or move, in "sharp angles" such as the materialist pyramid with a "top-down" structure imho. That pyramidal structure is effective for the 3-d of crystals (or the tripple-bonded "matter" as Buckminster Fuller would say...lol) and for the pyramidal organizational structures of the military, police, business, etc...or, in other words, all of the material... but not for the spiritual and not even for the intellectual or the "decision-making" process. The democracy of "numbers" is a superior "decision-making" process to the dictatorial, totalitarian, or autocratic (pyramid) structure So I agree that a guru worth his salt would sent one to the "INTERNAL" guru and hence would FREE and not HOLD his disciples. Any truly Spiritual movement would have a "suicide" clause. In other words, it would set people "FREE" from desires, addictions to emotions, lusts, etc.. and eventually destroy the need for it's own existence. (ideally or course and way in the future...but we can put it in there NOW, in our thoughts) . Spiritual movements today are growing like cancers and not healing many if any at all. They are just like religions and cults: creation "divisions". I don't know of any spiritual or religious Leader who has "let his disciples" go... But they may be out there...I HOPE... But I know of many who don't gather "disciples" or followers. I also agree with Shakti that although most religions that we hear of and see today are 'pyramidal" or "hierarchical", I see the Protestant Reformation, that really took a major power block away from the Autocratic" Structure of Roman Church as a movement towards the "democratization", and hence the emergence of a more circular/spherical structure in some of the western "religions" (Christian) if not the "eastern" Churches who remained "orthodox". This Reformation movement also set into freer motion, the age of REASON. I also see the native "circles" as a "spherical" structure where the center of the circle is a "FIRE" and all the points on the circle have an equal (ideally) value. There is no preferred spot on the circumference of the circle. In the direction of the fire, one can go as close as one can stand the heat...or get out of the kitchen...lol. The Native structure we see today is the "white man's" structure. I see the world rapidly changing and I see the Internet, this great revolution that empowers the last missing LINK, the COMMONER, (the amateur, US) as a agent of "Quickening" of the transformation process of the carbon-based entity called man and other such elementals. We are at the step of "REVEALING". It is in our consciousness or our "light body" that we want to rest our "hope", not in the materialistic pyramidal or religious structures with it's "mind numbing" and "spirit densing" rituals and "obedience". We will soon be un-recognizable as a species and the taking control of our "lowly" (as in chakra or the red end of the spectrum) survival but addictive emotions will just make another great story or song of "evolution" at the future school of LIFE .... I think that is what the "Aquarian Conspiracy" is all about...We will all get there without actually "conspiring" consciously but it is an inherent evolution of the process of LIFE... Thanks for your wise and thoughtful and thought provoking words... 4d-don
Shakti Das Registered User (8/29/07 4:59 pm) Reply	Blessed Be -- Akkadian wisdom stories Chris said: Quote: "I wonder if maybe we couldn't look now to the positive highest forms of Guru Yoga? " Well it should be obvious by now if the causes and conditions that prevent the lowest and most disastrous forms of guru yoga are not removed there is little hope that the best form of guru yoga can be performed. There's little sense about talking about the way to practice yoga as there exist 100 such good books on the market readily available for those who are so intent. I certainly don't feel posting quotes from our gurus has much to do about guru yoga either. As Darlene said the true guru is the one who lifts the veil of darkness and thus guru yoga is the practice that brightens the light (inner wisdom). In advanced guru yoga practices (dare i mention them) you visulaize yourself both as the yidam and the guru, but i do not dare mention this because the newbie will think that I am talking about the ego (which is of course the opposite case). Quote: "It can be direct to God, to any deity- Shiva, Kali, Durga, Tara, Ma. There is something very beautiful and transendent- at the very least temporarily- that can happen in such devotion." I think you may be confusing guru yoga with guru seva? Also the worship of Tara, Kali, Siva, etc,, is not guru yoga. Rather yidam practice is tantra and devotional practice is bhakti yoga. Guru yoga implies something very different This is not to say that worship of the ishta devata, yidam, or devotional practices is bad or good, but at least in the tantric systems guru yoga is a very specific practice with specific aims (as I assume you know). Again I won't go into it here because it will be seen in the limited context of an ego surrendering to another ego, neither of which is a valuable concept. Both processes may remove or reduce ego pride but teh processes are very different and the overall effects are different also. Yes, I agree I have never gotten much from jnana yoga except maybe in the very beginning. It is in analyzing all the problems inherent in guru yoga -- the assumption that an aspirant can effectively surrender to some other being and be taken care of -- i think there are many. Chris asks: Quote: "So what's all the fuss about?" That's why I like 4d Don's intelligent posts on this subject. It's not just in Christianity, Islam or Hinduism that some people have been exploited but personality cults in general have created much abuse be they claim religious justification or other. The psychology behind that is very interesting also. So i will not dismiss Don as simply being angry. Rather i assume that he is generally compassionate and cares that no one else be sucked into these travesties. (not sure if Saja Marg is the wosre offender though). To that end I think an inquiry as to why people get involved that way in the first place is very much on topic -- very cogent. Don. Wow! I love it! Bears repeating! Quote: "Spirituality has a ring of "no ritual, no structure, no buildings"...just like the native spirituality who have no "churches" but are "OUT OF DOORS" and where the Shaman is not revered as a GURU....There are no yearly "pilgrimmages" to or worship of the Shaman. My dad could be called a shaman, but he was just a simple man with some "gifts" that he said, we all have but most don't realize....lol ;-)) There are conspiracies out there, especially when one mixes nationalism with tribal (pyramidal or hierarchical) religions and/or the mis-organized and mis-named pyramidal spiritual movements that are really cults of material "individuals" and not spirituality at all. To obey to the point of "immorality" is not spirituality. To repeat "I am a slave of my desires" daily is not spiritual and not even "intellectually" wise if we understand the value of "positive imaging" and we understand the words of Vivekananda and his Master Ramakrishna who called this practice "silly". He was kind. Arranged Marriages are not "spiritual". If spirituality has any value in controlling the emotions, it should also polish the "intellect" to a logical gem, and not spew the grossness of "Seeking the Great Morality by being "immoral" as some Gurus who demand unquestioning "obedience" to any point, even immorality or criminality." Yes I agree, human community is at best catching up to the big community of all our relations. I take that this aberration stems from fear of mortality, fear of his animal nature being part of creation versus apart from it. Let me qualify that I am not saying that man is a physical body only, rather that his presence on the planet is due to embodiment and the embodiment process. If man doesn't wake up to that reality, then he will disembody (mass extinction. So here I am saying that man must first embrace nature and the process and nature of embodiment or he will perish. When he fully embraces that process then he will both know where he came from, what created him, and for what purpose. Without that man is a bastard searching for substitute answers of which immortality and immorality are just two, So this fear of death (because he does not know the source of life) man then calims war on death by claiming war on life and nature which gives rise to the notion than man can control nature and wilderness (that being the enemy). Man can be ego king and ruler hence the warrior kings and hierarchies designed to reward smarmy sycophants -- those willing to kill for the king, indulge him, serve him and lie for him including the traditions of church and state has proved to be self destructing. We could go all the way back to Sumer to the Gilgamesh Epic carved in stone to tell this story and how and why he killed Enkidu (Enkimdu, Eabani, or Enkita.), his best friend and penultimate wild-man. What a great wisdom tale and paralleled in many other indigenous stories preceding the Akkadian Dynasty. I just take this as our history -- that we were not taught as lads. So many lies that disempower men, that make then servants to external authority, that strip them of their innate wisdom, of their self worth, and of their power! I am witnessing an end to that travesty -- that assumption that security and immortality can be found through conquering nature and wilderness and the end to those institutions that cater to the surrender/repression of our primordial wisdom of which authoritarian religious hierarchies are certainly a symptom if not a willing exploitive partner. So to return to spirit is a return to our primordial roots and well springs and then empower self actualization here on the planet in this very body. That's what a good teaching/teacher does. They don't point to self or their lineage, but to the teacher within and empowers that seed - helps it to ripen -- cracks it open -- wakes them up! What I see in you is a radical honesty -- great compassion. Great passion! The egg of wisdom and light cracking open! Thank you! Quote: "I also see the native "circles" as a "spherical" structure where the center of the circle is a "FIRE" and all the points on the circle have an equal (ideally) value. There is no preferred spot on the circumference of the circle. In the direction of the fire, one can go as close as one can stand the heat...or get out of the kitchen...lol. The Native structure we see today is the "white man's" structure. I see the world rapidly changing and I see the Internet, this great revolution that empowers the last missing LINK, the COMMONER, (the amateur, US) as a agent of "Quickening" of the transformation process of the carbon-based entity called man and other such elementals. We are at the step of "REVEALING". JAI MA! "Another world is possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day I can hear her breathing." — Arundhati Roy