Friday, November 12, 2010

Babuji, Sahaj Marg, And "skin complexion"! Colour Discrimination??

Received this as a comment to article (on this blog): At Sahaj Marg (tm), It's Now: Babuji vs Babuji, from Frank Waaldijk, ex Zonal-in-Charge for the Netherlands, of Chari's faction, SRCM (California-1997).

For more interesting articles and art work see Frank's blog: Pitfalls of Spirituality

Insertions and comments by 4d-Don are in "red italics"


Nov. 12, 2010


Frank Said:


about babuji, i would like to add the following thing:

to me it was useful to reread speeches and books, just to see whether my new, no longer trusting, perspective on sahaj marg tallied with what was said and written. i found that there are numerous passages where i used to gloss over the inconsistencies, out of trust in the master and the system, but which without this trust simply stand out as moral pressure, judgmental and indoctrinating.

i have come across a few letters from babuji to chari, where babuji is concerned about the skin-complexion of possible brides for his son. would you believe this? one can look it up in volume iii of "Letters of the Master" around 1969-1970. culturally/traditionally in india, dark complexion of brides was (and still is by many) seen as less desirable, and you can read for yourself that babuji makes a point of asking chari about a possible candidate's complexion. this from a "Special Personality"...

i will reproduce the relevant parts of these letters below, but i will replace last names with blanks, for privacy protection, because internet is not the same as some obscure spiritual group's publication.



$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



the description of this aspect of the marriage episode of chi. umesh (babuji's son) starts on page 57 of 'letters of the master vol. iii'.

letter of 31 october 1969 from babuji to chari: (just the relevant quote):


"An officer in the Ministry of Home Affairs has started marriage negotiations for his daughter with Umesh. I have a mind to finalise the marriage of Umesh without consulting him if he does not object. I shall give him a good match. I received the photo of the girl today. The face-cut is good and I am told by one of my near relatives that she has white complexion."

here the description of the girl ends completely, there is no more mention of her in this letter. as you can see, babuji mainly focuses on the face-cut being good and the white complexion... this is truly superficial (more so in the light of this cultural prejudice that i mentioned), and also in my opinion completely at odds with everything that sahaj marg is supposed to stand for.

some time later, the marriage is still not concluded, and there are two more telling letters, one from chari, one from babuji. what words there are are little in number, but i find them to be very revealing in their intent.

12 November, 2010 10:38:00 AM PST

[continued from previous comment]

letter from chari to babuji 16 march 1970 (page 72 same book):

"A gentleman by name Mr. S-- S-- and his wif called on us yesterday evening on behalf of Shri R.P.S-- of Hardoi, said to be a retired sessions judge and a close associate of your family for the last 25 years. They came to meet us and Chi. Umesh in connection with a proposal to marry Sow. C--, one of the daughters of the judge Shri R.P.--. The girl is stated to be an M.A., a good artist in painting, well versed in domestic duties, but complexion is "savla". I have requested Mrs. S-- S--, who is related to Mr. R.P.--, that she should write to Mr. R.P.-- to contact you directly. I trust they will do so."

which is the complete relevant passage in this letter. i'm sure you will see the implication of this little by-sentence:

' but complexion is "savla" '

(savla (or sawla, sawala) means dark and is generally seen as less desirable than fair or white), especially when contrasted with the other qualities...!

then babuji's answer on 27 march 1970:

"Mr. C.A. R-- has suggested a good match for Umesh at Bombay. The father of the girl is going to present Rs. 5000/- in cash to the boy, and jewellery worth Rs. 5000/- plus other things as a gift. I respect the opinion of your father but I have already given consent to the person at Moradabad. I have written to him that I like the girl and when you approve the boy I may proceed towards the finalisation. The girl is second class M.A. in Psychology, fair complexioned and having good cut and her height is good. There is no question of dowry from my side. The father of the girl is Divisional Signal Engineer, Northern Railway, Moradabad, and the family is well-educated. The father of the girl will also go to Madras after 4th April 1970 to see Umesh. His name is R.N.--."

which is the complete relevant passage. once again, all that babuji mentions about the girl are her M.A., and three physical qualities which he must deem relevant, to mention them like this: fair complexioned, having good cut and her height is good. as if he is describing some farm animal, i'm sorry to say.

would one not think that a Special Personality would have more pressing spiritual concerns regarding marriage? apparently not, when it's about his own son.

so, yes, in my opinion, already babuji was not at all the genuine article. which doesn't mean that his teachings are complete rubbish. just that he didn't live up to them himself either...


12 November, 2010 10:40:00 AM PST

47 comments:

Shashwat said...

While we are writing article lets not forget that we are referring to people who have done no harm to humaity, are living.

In this particular article we are referring to a person who is now close to 65 yrs old women, who's husband has been murdered, his son has been poisoned, she herself was physically assaulted and dragged in road.

Its ok to expose the criminals faking as spiritual person, but when we are referring to a women, lets try and keep it decent, she has already suffered a lot, additional article referring to old memories will cause emotional problems to person directly getting affect by it.

IMHO, this article does not serve much purpose.

Regards
Shashwat

4d-Don said...

Hi Shashwat...

Point well taken...

I'm sure that Frank was not aiming at Umesh's wife but at Babuji and Chari for not being very compassionate towards women in general ... This is used as evidence, an example of the 'descrimination' which is inside and at the top of the pyramid of Sahaj Marg and the SRCM as they Preach Universality, human rights, etc... and then attempt to cloak themselves in the human rights ideals of the UNDPI ...

I hope it will be taken as it is presented, an attempt to increase the humans rights of all humans, and to not just preach at others with one side of one's face, and then do the opposite with the other side, when it comes to the convenience of those inside the "pyramid".

In current parlance:

If you're going to talk the talk,
Then you should walk the walk.


If we could get every institutions to live by their own criteria, the world would be a better place...

Thanks for the comment...

Don..

frank waaldijk said...

shashwat, like don says i wrote this as a comment on a post about babuji, without any negative intent towards umesh's wife.

it could be that she would rather not have this info published...then i apologize, but these letters have already been published by srcm. [an idea which i actually find questionable. in these letters there is a lot of personal information and many personal remarks about many people who i'm sure have not been asked permission to reveal this information. this is why i have striven to obscure as much personal info as is possible.]

in this case, i could not completely obscure all identities, since the point that i feel i need to make concerns how babuji and chari think about the marriage of babuji's son.

these thoughts reveal a great deal (in my humble opinion) about how `enlightened' babuji and chari were/are. imho this is important information when discussing the truthfulness of the masters of a movement like sahaj marg.

it is true that i do not know much about any of the persons mentioned, but i do know for myself that racial (facial) discrimination is something which does not go together with a spiritual path.

chari's recent ghastly discrimination of homosexual people has provoked me to reveal also this imho not-so-enlightened exchange of the last two masters of sahaj marg. enough is enough, these types of discrimination need to be revealed to public scrutiny, i feel, in order to be countered.

Anonymous said...

Why don't we all remember this: At the end of the day Babuji was a human being. These letters were written decades ago in India. Even today I witness mothers looking for brides for their sons and rejecting lovely girls because of their skin tone.

Babuji was a great person but only human

4d-Don said...

Hi Anonymous...

Thanks for saying it so tersely and so succinctly. We all agree with you. Babuji nor anyone else is a "special person", a Messiah, a Saviour who can Save or Liberate anyone, not even himself from his own shortcomings which he himself preached against claiming that Sahaj Marg will make one more "tolerant" and not so "racist"... in other words: more SPIRITUAL!!

This display of lack of spirituality is what we, the bloggers have been exposing for the past many years... We are finally coming to a general "concensus"...

ONE is ALL! But no one is ALL ... or "special" ... We are all "HUMANS" ...all in the same boat.

We should then learn to LOVE, accept or at least TOLERATE all other HUMANS... at least the other "tolerant"!

That is a preaching for the "gurus", the Masters, as well as the "disciples", the followers !!

Don....

4d-Don said...

While we are on the subject:

This is from a speech by Chari at Satkohl Airport Jan. 29, 2001.

(see here for more:

http://4d-don.blogspot.com/2006/05/quotes-you-wont-find-in-any-sahaj-marg.html

Why Women Cannot Be Master in SRCM


12:30 p.m. On why a lady cannot be a Master Babuji said that a Master of that caliber gets orders from above, and their work includes that of destruction. A woman is not capable of such destruction. All this talk about equality between men and women the more they talk about something, the less they will get it. Equality is different from equalization. There are high pressure and low pressure areas. In the process of equalization, the wind flows from here to there, and this process if what creates the climate. If the pressure were the same everywhere, there would be no climate. This is the way of nature: Inequality Equalization Inequality Equalization (alluding to a low pressure building, winds blowing from other high pressure areas, another low pressure building up, etc.) Today you see American woman trying to do everything that the male does. They join the navy seals It is not a job for them. I might offend the woman here, but God did not create both as equals. Each have their own sphere of functioning."


November 25, 2001, 8:45 a.m

"Satkhol Before the morning satsangh, the door of the meditation hall was left open, and Master asked someone to close it. After this was done, an abhyasi walked in, leaving the door open again. This was closed, only for the same scene to happen yet again! Master said In the West, they have a habit to leave things as they were. If a door is open, they will leave the door open. If a door was closed, they will close the door behind them. They will leave things as they find it. This practice makes life very simple. There are many things we should learn from the West. It is the Indians who have the arrogance to leave things any which way. Some closes a door. Someone opens a door. It is a mess. (Later an abhyasi recalled a dream in which he saw Lalaji as Babuji as Love, and Chariji as Discipline). Master recalled Babujis directive in Paris (1982) to Him to bring discipline into the mission. But there are several people still in the mission who are undisciplined. So saying, He turned and looked at a girl who was sitting right next to Him (As if He was saying this to her). And almost immediately, she began to wipe off some tears from the corner of her eyes. And Master, looking at this, said Now, Dont you start. I do not understand women at all. Say the slightest of things harshly, and they begin to create a scene. It appears that I should only talk about superficial things like the food, the weather, etc. to them. Anything stronger than that, they cannot take it. I do not know what Mami (referring to His late wife) will think about all this. Maybe she will pull me up for what I am saying now, once I get to the brighter world. I do not know whether I am going there or not, but she is there. Babuji is saying You are doing good work. So continue doing it. You have built Satkhol. Go on, and build more places like this Master said that, in 2005, we would have a new ashram in Uttar Kashi, which is the place where the Sapta Rishis (the Seven Sages governing the universe) came down to the Earth to meditate. He also talked about an ashram in the place where Pathanjali had his ashram"

Don...

Anonymous said...

Mr.don,

Though I belong to spirituality yet I can not ignore my system of marriages, Ceremonies, festivals etc.,for the sake of my mother or father. I have to be obedient to my parents in observing certain Rituals.What is harm if I prostrate before the Idol of Lord Krishna or Christ to please my parents. Absolutely nothing will happen to my spiritual evolution. After all I am not offending the feelings of my life givers. Likewise Babuji also a common man bound by social customs
and
tradition. Though he was a Special Personality yet he had to follow certain customary things for the sake of society and his kith and kin.
This kind of social obligations is there in every human being in the
world. High lightening such a trivial thing for judging the character of a saint is nothing but
Spiritual-ignorance.

4d-Don said...

Hi anonymous...

You must mean "spiritualist ignorance"??

Is spirituality not for our evolution from such "rituals" of the past (of our parents)?

What about: If my family were cannibals so I must also perform cannibalism so as to not offend my family (tribe)? Forever?

What about Chari's statement: "kill your mother if the guru asks you to"? Is that not "of the past" also, and to not repeat so as to be SPIRITUAL and show compassion for the innocent mother?

What is spirituality for? Why not all remain the way we are born and not "become better"? Do we not strive to BE spiritual NOW, so that our civilizations or our species may evolve into a more LOVING "homo sapiens" than it's been in the past?

What can we give up from the past if we can't give up the "rituals" of the past?

Does Sahaj Marg really expect to grow among the "dark complexion" people? Would that not mean that the "dark complexion" people would then have to be traitors and betray their own "skin complexion" if they become "obedient servants" of such a system.

If Babuji had been a "special" anything, he would have shown his own "evolution" if it was in his "PERSONALITY" ... He did not, but he preaches at others to do so, and claims that his Sahaj Marg is for all irregardless of RACE!! Does that not seem like a LIE to you??
Do we dare look at the sexism in Sahaj Marg? Or the "sexual preference" issue, the homosexual issue (gays, lesbians, trans-genders)??

Where is the "compassion" for the 'dark complexion" persons in your society? The Sudra (from Sudan) who were brought as "slaves" to India in the past.

One can't keep repeating the "corruption" of the past, which the "spiritualist Sahaj Marg" and its self-appointed Master, Chari, tries to attach to RELIGION, and then claim that one's own system, Sahaj Marg, will transform one into something better. Specially if the Founder and the current Master of the system repeats the same corruption (the sins) as the fathers ... the past!

Where is the Spiritual Ignorance? It seems to be in your own "corrupt" and ignorant system!!

In my SPIRITUALITY, I will praise those such as Frank who, in compassion and empathy, shows "indignation" at such hypocrisy. Specially with human rights issues which harm others, issues such as racial (colour) discrimination, and gender discrimination, and/or sexual preference discrimination (gays, lesbians, trans-genders), and who dares to reveal it to the world ... It shows that one does not need to belong to a "Group" to have a "conscience" or to BE SPIRITUAL!!

Frank is a shining light and a truly "special" person to have been "inside" the pyramid of RELIGION and Spiritualism which is Sahaj Marg, in a position of authority, and to have left and now to SPEAK OUT in compassion and empathy for the oppressed of the "new religions"!!

If I was still a "catholic" or a Christian, I would be tempted to call him: Saint Frank (Honestly)

To be Frank and Honest are the same thing! (synonyms) ;-))

Don...

Shashwat said...

Anonymous,

I am born in india, and got educated there, soon i will be married to an indian chosen by my parents, saying that skin color is paramount importance while selecting bride is a social standard in india is absolutely false.

There are some low level Hippocrates in india as they are every-where who make decision based on skin color and not nature/compatibility of person.

Babuji was one such hippocrates, on one hand he is giving transmission claiming it to be spiritual, on other hand when things come to his own family, he becomes choosy as to what skin color he would prefer in his home... how can such a person claim to love humanity????? if he cannot accept a person with dark skin in his family what universal love these Hippocrates talk about?

Get a life, start thinking

Regards
Shashwat

4d-Don said...

Hi all... (levity)

Maybe that is why the Holy Roman Catholic Church started using so much incense in its rituals ...

Getting the "Religious" gold, incense and silk to and from the Vatican, contributed to the spreading of the Hindu-Arabic numeral system, and the eventual creation of our current economic model of credits(+) and debits(-). (Fibonacci c. 1170 – c. 1250))

The incense they used (and still use) is called: "Frankincense".

They must want all to be: "frank and make sense" or to have: "Frank'n sense"

;-))

We want that too!!

Don...

4d-Don said...

Hi again all...

Something I just noticed...

Chari was involved with this marriage arrangement ... where skin complexion (colour) was seen as important.

In an interview with Dinash Kumar Saxena, the dean of NaqshMuMRa Sufi Stream, I remember that he claims that Chari did him a favour by finding a husband (one of his "boys") for Dinaysh's older daughter. I also noticed that Dinaysh's son, who started this site

(http://laalaajinilayam.blogspot.com/)

was also hired and worked for HST Global Services (Australia) Pty Ltd. (he still might). The founder and at least one director of which, is involved with SRCM (California-1997).

Mr. Reddy, the founder of HST Global is a trustee of the SMSF (Sahaj Marg Spirituality Foundation) which owns all the "material" of the Mission, and Elizabeth Haskill who is a director of HST Global and a "functionary" of SRCM (California-1997). She is focussed on the "children" of Sahaj Marg, having published a book with SRCM (California-1997) probably under their "publishing" arm, which has another name.

It seems that arranging marriages is a "modus operandi" for empire builders such as Chari ... even in Spiritualism which claim to be "spirituality", such as Sahaj Marg (tm) ... Registered trade-marked just like a vulgar piece of "Material".

If I remember correctly, Dinaysh was not happy with the arrangement he had with Chari and felt "manipulated"?

Maybe Shashwat could also enlighten us on this.

Don ....

Anonymous said...

Hi all...

Thanks to Shashwat for this information:

There are two articles on this blog:

http://4d-don.blogspot.com/2009/06/dean-of-lalajis-naqshmumra-sufi-order.html

and this one:

http://4d-don.blogspot.com/2009/06/transcript-of-interview-part-4-with.html

... and the original interview (in Hindi, not english) is on Shashwat's site, Because of time ocnstraints, only section 4 is translated above... We welcome any offers to translate the rest. We will verify the accuracy of the translation.):


Freedom From Sahaj Marg
(it is number 22... last on the page)

http://www.freedom2think.org/documents/index.html

Don...

Anonymous said...

Mr.Don,

Where is the "compassion" for the 'dark complexion" persons in your society? The Sudra (from Sudan) who were brought as "slaves" to India in the past.

I agree with your above statement that our society has no broadmindedness but what about your society which lacks large-hearted-ness to embrace all Religion like our society.

Each and every society in this world have their own idiosyncrasies and inhibitions ie. differences in their customs and traditions.I do not want to discuss about it in detail.As for as I am concerned Chariji is a down-right ordinary man and not a saint.

Babuji himself said that he( Babuji) has his own weaknesses and that is common in every human being. He is after all an instrument of nature. He was given the responsibility of transforming the present material type of civilization to spiritual one and he used 'Mahakal Chakra' for this purpose and this is the phenomenon of nature.

After Jesus was crucified, the world bow-down at His feet. Hypocrites will realize the truth when it triumphs.

Regards.

4d-Don said...

Hi again anonymous...

You say:

He is after all an instrument of nature. He was given the responsibility of transforming the present material type of civilization to spiritual one and he used 'Mahakal Chakra' for this purpose and this is the phenomenon of nature.

We are all "instruments of nature".

If Babuji was "given the responsibility of Transforming the present material type of civilization to spiritual one" ... was it by "himself"? And would that transformation not begin inside the "instrument", rather than in the preaching to others to "transform" by not discriminating on the basis of "race, colour, creed, nationality, etc..." as most religions preach?

That truth, that all men are born equal and not to be judged on the basis of colour, height, cut, etc.. will survive and we will remember those who have lived with that truth as their banner.

We will also remember those who:
Talk the talk but don't walk the walk...

And these in-alienable "human rights" also apply to women!! That is what SRCM (California-1997), should be duty and honour-bound to promote and adhere to so as to keep their membership to UNDPI (United Nations Department of Public Information). That Department of the UN was created for non-profit societies who agree to promote and fundion according to the ideals of the UN...

SRCM (California-1997) is Delinquent in its "DUTIES" in this "material world"!! Is it also delinquent in its "spiritual" DUTIES?? Most would say YES!!

Thanks for your comments...

Don...

Shashwat said...

"After Jesus was crucified, the world bow-down at His feet. Hypocrites will realize the truth when it triumphs."

Babuji died more than quarter of a century ago... and now we are coming to know that he was at best a Hippocrate..

Chari is not dead yet, but he is old enough... chari has caused enough problems to humanity that he is fit to directly goto hell... as for sahaj marg, its a brainwashing cult which has been fooling people for quite some time now, but now that it has to counter "THE TRUTH" it has crumbled like sand house.

Soon you will also realize the truth and transform yourself from being a zombie to human which can think.

Regards
Shashwat

4d-Don said...

Hi Anonymous...

I can't leave that false history pass by ... Christianity, like Sahaj Marg and the SRCM (California-1997), attempted to revise their history and tried to make the population forget their "crimes" and their "SINS"...

Do some research...don't take my word, or anyone's word for your Belief...

After Jesus, the Nazarene died, until the 2nd century,the Jesus movement was just a small group of Jews, persecuted as a cult by the Romans, until Constantine, the Roman Emperor, who had killed his wife and son, joined it after a supposed dream, and took it over at the Council of Niceae (Turkey - 325 ACE).

According to Pagan religion, Constantine would have had to "atone" for those crimes (and all his many crimes), but Christianity offered "forgiveness" and the "absolution" of sin.

(Just like Sahaj Marg offers: "erasing of Samskaras"... a lie and not even in accord with the Law of KARMA or the Universal Law of "Action/Reaction" ... if one can erase Samskaras, then, there is no law of Karma ... sin all you want and then confess it to a priest or see you preceptor and have your Master erase your "sins"... or, according to Chari: "Repeat the Whispers seven or eight times...")

Constantine wanted to unite his empire under a religious banner so as to stop the Goth Invasion from Easter Europe, and Christianity became the State Religion. There were more sacrificed in the Ronam arenas and the colisseums when Christianity became the State Religion than previously!!

In other words, people bowed to Jesus at the point of a sword ... Christianity, like most religions, use "terror", and/or the promise of rewards, or punishment on the "other side", so to gather numbers ...

Some Christians from the Protestant Reformation (Calvin, Martin Luther, etc..) got up off their knees and did not "bow down" to the Vatican's Jesus, their Christ (Messiah) or to his "representatives", the POPES... Some did not bow down to any religions after the dis-empowering of the HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE ... (which is now being revived, according to some, as the European Union (EU)

The loss of secular power of the Vatican and the advent of atheism and humanism, the scientific method, etc... brought about the Renaissance (re-birth), the Golden Age, in Europe. Man was not the "center of the UNiverse" anymore, but just a part of Nature or CREATION.

So if we, in our society can get up off our knees in the face of the HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE and it's ultimate power, you in your society can stand up and speak with your ONE, as Vivekananda would call your "GOD", and converse without the use of a PROXY ...

Get up and BE truly SPIRITUAL... not "become" at some future time what you know is the REALITY today ...

Bless you and yours...

Don...

4d-Don said...

TO ALL (Creation)

We are fast becoming a GLOBAL Society ... As Michio Kaku, physicist, calls it: CIVILIZATION ONE

This discrimination according to skin colour, race, nationality, etc... will not UNITE all the PEOPLE of the WORLD ...

This is the ERA of the COMMON MAN ... We are all the INFONAUTS ... Aeronauts sail the Air
Astronauts sail Space (among the stars... Astra)

INFONAUTS surf the Information Highway ... or the Memory circuits of the Zuvuya (Mayan) !!

But we all have to reach out and take (read) the INFORMATION and use the POWER!! Not simply follow and repeat anymore!! Now is the culmination of the AGE OF REASON ... We are asked and we ask our children to THINK for YOURSELF!!

The Information and the technology is all there for us to COMMUNE with one another directly, in love, compassion, empathy, and respect.

Democracy is evolving as we speak. We will soon, be voting directly on the issues in a DIRECT DEMOCRACY ... we don't have to be led and be fooled anymore by the ELITE, the Wealthy and/or the SCAMMERS !!

If we must be bought, then let the power hungry buy us, and/or our vote, individually.

If we must sell ourselves, let us get something (power, money, or information) out of it ... not simply promises ... and specially promises of rewards on the "other side" or in "the afterlife" ...

Don...

Anonymous said...

Mr.Saswat,

God has given you eyes but by closing it with your own hands you say that there is no light under the broad day Sun light. since your mind is crooked you see even positive things as negative. Babuji has already merged in Divine and you are still talking about his physical form that clearly shows that you have yet to progress in spirituality to understand the Real nature of Him which is divine.

Try to aviod your Hypocratic nature and become perfect, only then you can see the perfection in the Elated soul.

May God bestow you right-discrimination and wisdom.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous,

Which statement do you find as Hypocratic in what i have stated?

what makes you feel that babuji is merged with divine? how are you so sure about this? are you hallucinating?

What do you call a person who claims to teach spirituality to everyone claiming he considers everyone same... but when it comes to his own home, he decides based on skin color? this is down right racist, such people go to hell they do not merge with divine

Shashwat

Anonymous said...

Mr.Shaswat,

'what makes you feel that babuji is merged with divine? how are you so sure about this? are you hallucinating? '

I ask you that what makes you to perceive Sun-light? ie.your SELF, and the same SELF in me that perceives through heart the Divinity in BabujiMaharaj. Hallucination or delusion is ignorance.Knowledge and consciousness is Reality.
Your own ignorance makes your SELF not to cognize the Divine-Being in everything not only in Babuji.

Divinity is in you and in every thing that is manifested but you are not in Divinity, that is the problem. You are still in the spear of Illusion, then, how can you understand the nature of a person who had merged in Divinity ?

A day will definitely dawn and you people will realize the TRUTH and follow the foot-steps of Babuji Maharaj.

May the Day dawn soon !!!

Anonymous said...

Do you lot have nothing better to do than to argue over what a dead man said decades ago!

4d-Don said...

Hi Anonymous!!

If I may return your "pearls of Wisdon"... With other religions, it is words that were said millenia ago which some still believe, and that they "argue" over.

Do you "lot" have nothing better to do than to argue with those who want to discuss (or argue over) what a dead man said decades ago?? ... ;-))

When some claim that a "dead person" was chosen by our ONE-ness, (what they call god) over all others, then we who chose not to believe what this "MAN" said, will discuss it until we are heard by ourselves and until all will know that what was said by "these men", and what was DONE (their actions) is not the same thing ... there is a "double standard" at Sahaj Marg as we, the BLOGGERS will expose that ... That is what is called: "hypocrisy".

Welcome to the 21st Century ... The Age of Information... The era of the INFONAUT!!

If you want us to not waste our time, then you, don't waste your time here, and go MEDITATE and BE Spiritual ... rather than preaching at others who already have loftier morals and ethics than Racism, Sexism, elitism, culturalism, nationalism, imperialism, megalomania, etc... etc...etc...

Stay in your home until you are "better than" or at least more spiritual than our (western) secular laws ...

Spiritualism is not Spirituality...

By the way: We will follow the footsteps of everyone who came before us until we build a new road... WE who don't belong to a GROUP are cutting new roads ...

The road is wide and many journey with you on the road to perdition..

The Good road is narrow and few journey with you...

We recognize the REALITY that we are all ONE ... Babuji is not more ONE or "special" than the rest of us ... and the dead are not more "merged" with ONE than the LIVING ...

LIVE your SPIRITUALITY NOW ...


Before being carbon entities (and other elements), we (consciousness) were all hydrogen, and before that, we were energy (EM), and before that we were MIND and before that we were SPIRIT... And as SPIRIT, we still are SPIRIT, we don't die. Our material (matter, energy, mind) will transform from onr form to the other and as such, can be called: temporal illlusion ... Spirit is our ONE-ness, and ONE... and is ETERNAL.

The "spirits" of Spiritualism are divided ... SPIRIT of Spirituality is ONE!


Don...

Shashwat said...

I am sill waiting for your Hippocratic comment, you have not mentioned where do you find my statement as hippocratic, i have shown that your babuji was a hippocratic and a racist person, and i am sure such people do not merge with divine, but burn in hell.

You are free to consider him divine, till you do not interfere with my matters, but when you poke your nose in the way i wish to live my life, you will have to answer my questions.

4d-Don said...

Hi Shashwat ... ;-))

In my youth, I once met an old Hungarian (Christian Orthodox) monk who had fought in the Hungarian uprising of 1957 against the now-defunt Soviets (USSR), and escaped to Canada, and when in a debate or an argument, some other would make a good point, he would say:

"You Pooty (pretty) good! You pooty Good!!"

Shashwat: "You pooty good!!" Funny,tenacious, and Good!!

Vivekananda seems to have been a good source for you!! Left you free to think!! (not all good thoughts, but Free to Think, and learn!)

And when you learn, you don't keep it in!! You put it out!!

;-))

You pooty good!

Don...

Anonymous said...

Just more levity...

I just thought of another one for Frank's "incensed"...

Maybe Sahaj Marg should start using that kind of "incense" that makes one "Frank" (or honest) ... There's a market for the BUSINESSMEN of SRCM(California-1997) ... Much money to be made ... They can claim that the use of "Frankincense" (from Yemen?) is Special and erases Samskaras ... They can try and register patent and have it "trade marked", claiming it as UNIQUE!!

The Christians used it to keep away evil spirits (Demons, Satan??) ...

From:
http://www.ofspirit.com/margaretmcgoverne1.htm

Other benefits ascribed to the burning of incense included the purification of an area, to change a mood (to facilitate meditation or religious practices) and to cleanse and disinfect living spaces, especially after pollution caused by, for instance, death or illness.

For many years Frankincense from the Arabian peninsula was actually a more valuable currency than gold or silver. In almost every religion, aromatic oils, leaves and powders were considered a gift from the Gods, symbolic of divine grace. Frankincense was used in vast quantities by the ancient Egyptians, Persians and Assyrians, and via them, by the Romans, who would have learned of its use when coming into contact with eastern nations.


If one who used FRANKINCENSE is not FRANK and tells a lie, then they become "incensed" at their own "un-truthfullness" ... lol lol

"I'm just kidding around! That's all!"

All for fun ...

Don...

4d-Don said...

NEW TERMINOLOGY and HUMOUR!!

What do you think is the correct categorization for Sahaj Marg (tm)?

Is it: Racist Spirituality (or Spiritualism)? or Sexist and Racist Spiritualism?

Or is it: Spiritual Racism?

Spiritual Racist Logic:

If God, being a fair complexion and male god just like us, did not want us to be "superior" (fair complexion-ed and male), "he" (male god) would not have created so many inferior (darker) to us!!

IT did NOT!! (of course!)

Spiritual Racists live in a megalomaniacal illusion!! They must not only think themselves superior, but must also think themselves chosen as Messiah's to save Mankind, (as long as enough of mankind feeds them well and adores them and give them all their time and decision-making power and obey them in every aspect of LIFE...

Ah! The boring tediousness of it all ... just sitting on a throne and being adored!! No ego... just BEING adored!!

Let's see!! Who will chose the "outfits" and the interior designs for the Ashrams of the new MESSIAH?? Where are the gays when one needs one??


Don...

OK... that's the last one... lol lol ;-))

Anonymous said...

Mr.Shaswat/Don,

I am sorry for calling you an Hypocrite. You are frank and stright-forward. Mr.Don is a philosopher and out-spoken. I have interacted with both of you in good measure. I do not know about your spiritual experience but I regard you for your selfless- service to abyasis of SRCM(Cal)who are blindly suffering from slavery and tyrrany under the leader-ship of Chariji.

My humbly question is , why do you not able to see the Divine nature of Babuji Maharaj and critize him.
I do not force you to see Divinity in him but I am surprided, after you studying his books and being in his divine company, how could you not feel the Divine qualities in him which reflects in every abyasi.
If you were not living in his physical-company then I canot question you about your comments and critisisms.

Chariji was only a senior-clerk in Babuji office and not a saint. After Babuji, so many abyasis claimed themselves as next to him. It is quite but natural. In every mission de-genaration takes place after the originator's departure and SRCM(Babuji) is not an exception.

So far my study goes, nobody except Behenji could reach the Goal.Even Babuji could not do anything with his abyasis except nominating them in certain posts like, service, books translations, zonal-inchargs and presidents, that's all. LIke Jesus, Budha and Vivekananda, Babuji also tried his level best to liberate each and every abyasi from their bondage of life and death.But he too faced a similar little resuls as other saints faced. Lalaji also tried to lift many a souls from their illusion but he too suceeded in a few only.

HOpe, you could understand what I mean.

Regards.

4d-Don said...

Hi anonymous...

Thank you for your comments and kind words...

We (I) appreciate that you feel that Babuji was special and that now, Kasturi is. Christians feel that Jesus is the "only son of ONE" (what they call God or Yahweh or the "I am THAT I am"). Buddhists think Buddha was special. Muslims think that Mahommed was special. That is fine if we want to remain divided as a species and not realize our SPIRIT-uality or our ONE-ness. Our families are also special. Our friends are also special...

But our SPIRIT, our ONE-ness has to include ALL ... and as such, there is either no "special" or ALL are special. We are ALL inside of ONE, made up of ONE, and there is no "outside" of ONE. In other words, we are all in ONE-ness...or ALL are ONE if there is such a thing as SPIRIT.

There is in REALITY no hell except the one created by the MIND ... Hell is not a physical place just like "heaven" or the "brighter world" are not a SPECIAL places. They are of the dual (divisive) MIND of Man... No other part of creation NEEDS a heaven and an hell, just MAN!!

Lalaji and Babuji, and Christ and Buddha and Mahommed tried to improve the lot of their people ... just like many of us do, you included... Yet, you or I are not "SPECIAL" ... either. To think ourselves "special" would display our own "EGO" and our even our megalomania. Our culture or our nation was not "chosen" by ONE above all others.

We are all Special and we would be wise to love ALL as if they were SPECIAL or love no one more than the other, as if All were Special, even if simply as a survival mechanism for the species (biodiversity)... We can enjoy the company of some more than the company of others but that is only HUMAN. We can respect some more than we respect others but that also is only HUMAN. But to make some special is to make the others "less than special" and that is a lack of LOVE (or sight, thinking, seeing, feeling, etc..)

And this is just what I think... it is not Special and I am not SPECIAl!!

Thanks for sharing...

Don...

Anonymous said...

HI, Don,

You have beautifully narrated the specialty of each and every human-being. Hat's off to your depth of understanding of That- One-ness.
I want to express some of my views as under with your kind permission.

As the Sun reflects in every pond so also the Divine reflects in every manifested and un-manifested thing. But where is the problem. When the individual does not identify himself with the Divine then it faces illusion and misery which can be got-rid by realizing it's own true Divine-nature through contemplation and meditation on it's Divine-nature directly or training from a proper guide. This is how one can solve his problem of life.Babuji is one of such guides who helps the individual in achieving his Goal of life ( Original Abode).That's all.

Thanks a lot.
Amen.

Shashwat said...

Rajan (Anonymous)

you have still not answered as how come a hippocrate like babuji can be considered as divine.

I am surprised how can you consider such a foolish man to be divine? he could not save his own family and could not gauge the intentions of Chari and you stil think he was divine?

Question here is not if babuji was divine or not, you are always off topic, question here is if babuji was a hippocrate or not. You have not answered that, but repeated your useless rant of babuji was divine, this is what is called a drone... you do not accept anything which is obvious, but continue to rant your old line babuji was divine, pls do not waste you time in discussion if you KNOW you cannot discuss beyond a point. pls discuss only if you read what is written and understand the essence of it.

Shashwat

4d-Don said...

Hi anonymous...

As Bob Dylan, the folk singer once said:

"No sense talking to you, it's just like talking to me!!" ;-))

From a fellow sojourner in MOTION:

(From OUR Spirit)

If you see Babuji or any HUMAN as your "proper guide", my duty is to raise a flag of warning, so that you may be protected and that you do not absorb the part of Babuji which makes him "human". Having journeyed in "human form" Babuji has developed some traits such as: smoking, emotionalism, and chosing a wife for his son according to "fair complexioned and having good cut and her height...").

Just like you, Babuji has some "humanity" and hence could keep you, or other seekers, from fully realizing the REALITY, the ONE-ness, what you call the "Divine relects in the manifest and un-manifested thing".

All complexions (from fair to savla or sawla) are of the DIVINE!! To seperate or divide them is creating "duality" from UNITY or ONE-ness!! That is not a desireable trait for one on the Spiritual path to absorb.
One may need a "slava" on one's journey towards, or in one's realization of, ONE-ness ... what you call: the GOAL. What I call REALITY or NOW!!

May you realize THAT (not who) which reflects in the manifest and the un-manifested thing!!

May you find very, very many proper guides so that you may be protected by the (bio-) diversity of numbers and not fall into the dual materiality of "personalities", but soar accross eternal SPACE with and in our Spirit of One-ness ... Specially into the un-manifested!!

The manifest is available to ALL... Only the "SPIRITUAL", the thinker, the builders of (un-manifest) abstract thoughts, conceives of, and hence sees the un-manifest!!

Unfortunately, we can only see with MIND, what Mind can conceive!! The un-manifest is not conceived "YET" ...

Manifested MIND being Dual or TWO, can only follow ONE !! Unless one wants (using will-power) to reverse direction and go into the "un-manifest"... then TWO can precede ONE!!

That Divine ONE or Spirit is also BABUJI and ALL ...

Don

Anonymous said...

Shaswat,

You are talking like a fool. A patient should take the medicines what the Doctor prescribes, to get cured from his ill-ness, otherwise he has to suffer. Similarly practice meditation as Babuji prescribed then you will definitely find that he is Divine, otherwise it is un-necessary to talk to you about this subject.

Bye...

Anonymous said...

Mr.Don,

Thank you for your kind reply.

Regards.

Shashwat said...

Anonymous,

lol....Anyone who does not agree to your point of view automatically becomes a fool.

You are trapped in the cocoon of your closed thoughts.

For once consider the possibility that you might be wrong... you will become enlighten the moment you realize how wrong you were..

try it..

Shashwat

4d-Don said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
4d-Don said...

Hi Rajan ...

There are some good traits, qualities, virtues and/or properties which now exist in some people, groups, and their philosophies and in some Masters, which we could support and emulate if we don't already. Those who place themselves in situations where others then claim them to be Masters in SPIRITUALITY, such as Chari and Babuji, could learn and become like these people. And they could realize that to discriminate on one's complexion, height or cut, hurts some of the CREATOR's innocent creatures, and that it is truly not the "divine truth" but a product of THE (their own) divisive MIND...

If they (these Masters can't become more tolerant (as one is dead), then you who are here, who comes to discuss and share, could become less like that and more like those who support "no racism, no sexism, and no discrimination on the basis of height and cut. If one (a Master or President of a Group) does that, then that action (when admitted in a letter, signed by him), certainly should jeopardize their credibility as a Master for "all" who seek the Universal Spirituality which is promoted !! That is the responsibility of a moral Master, if that is what is said by them in a letter, signed by them!! But it is also the responsibility of a "good follower" to only follow if one is not led into "immorality"! (becoming "racist, sexist, etc...)

... and the criteria of the United Nations DPI program demands that such groups should IMMEDIATELY send a "decree" from the PRESIDENT to their membership and UNDO the hurt and damage they do, and have done in the past to "the slava" and those with less: height, and cut... or gender (females), and homosexuals, bi-sexuals, and trans-genders, unics, other religions, cultures, etc.. ... at least in the name of Universal SPIRITUALITY... morality, ethics, etc...

You, yourself, can certainly stand against that racism, sexism and other such divisive and discriminatory isms, and attempt to change it, even in your "proper guide" and/or his "religion" ... with a supposed Master in the field being discussed and which is falsely being actively propagated to other un-informed seekers, as Universal, moral, ethical, etc......

If more peolple become like these MASTERS, then more innocent people will surely suffer at the hands of the "fringe elements" ...

There is now a call from the UN Commissioner for Human Rights, for all "good men" to come to the aid of OUR brothers and sisters... who are dying daily!!

For the Love of ONE and ALL!!

Don...

Anonymous said...

Shaswat,

Leave Babuji and his mission and tell me about your method for God Realization. What is your experience in spirituality ? What is your concept of God and who is your spiritual Guide, if you have ?

Answer me the above questions with out deviating the subject.

Anonymous said...

Don,

I do not want to continue my discussion with you since you are not considering my views at all. I suppose that, You were also an abyasi of Babuji Maharaj and had His Divine company and I do not know why did you leave Him and talk about Him in this manner like Mr.Frank who was a new Abyasi in SRCM(Cal)under Chariji.What do you think about Lalaji ?
similar views !!!

Thank you.

4d-Don said...

Hi Rajan ...

I do consider your views!!

... in my consideration of your views, I have not heard any logical and moral defense to the "racism" stance ... I don't think there is one possible. Anyone who tries to defend it will, in the end, be shown to be wrong and will have to change ... It hurts too many people ... If you know of a situation where racism would be "moral", ethical, spiritual, or even "DESIREABLE"!!... then let us all know!!

No, I don't lump Lalaji and Babuji in the same "category". Lalaji, has a REAL "lineage" which he did not "make up" from dreams. And, what he speaks, he does so as the (alleged) "perfect copy" of his Master, Huzur, certified by an "independent panel" of religious leaders. His real lineage, in the NaqshMuMRa Sufi Stream, a branch of Naqshbandiya Sufi Order, goes all the way to Mahommed, the Prophet. That is as long as the Roman Catholic lineage of Popes ... and we all know how wrong they can be in their assessment and stands on current relevant issues, being guided by, or relying on "tradition" and/or "scriptures".

The latest example is the current Pope's recent statements on the use of condoms. After condemning the use of condoms for all catholics in all circumstances for decades, now, male prostitutes (who are catholics, if there is such a "dude"), can use condoms because it is suddenly not seen as a form of "birth control" but as a "medical" device, (i.e. stopping the spread of AIDS.)

They (the Roman Catholic Church or the Vatican) are desperate as they are losing membership daily. So their moral stance changes, the past tradition goes down the tube.

It looks like the same issue with Babuji... He did not want to be racist, or to decide on colour, but after all, traditionally, to keep the lineage fairer is and was the desire of the "elite", the upper caste. The darkies were the slaves (labourers) brought from Africa and the more southern lattitudes.


In Babuji's case, he appointed himself, so his ideas are his own, from his subjective dreams of Lalaji, Vivekananda, Christ, etc ... And his method is also not the same as Lalaji, either ... but if Lalaji decided (during his life) on his "son's wives" on the grounds of "complexion, cut or height", then I would condemn it as "Racism and Sexism" also.

"What is good for the goose is also good for the gander"

If we, the people, can't be racists, according to their own teachings, then they must also not be RACISTS and/or make decisions based on such "racist" TRAITS. The average person does not have a "choice" in being who they are, their fate!! ... To discriminate on the basis of "colour" is WRONG... no matter who does it...

But Babuji is the FOUNDER of Sahaj Marg, so he makes up the rules ... And Chari uses quotes from Babuji to justify his "racism and sexism"... It is not by accident that these letters were published.

Lalaji was simply the first "non-muslim" Master of the "long lasting" Naqhshbandiya Sufi Order, the decisions he makes have much to do with his "obeying" to the Masters of his lineage... or he can always start an new ORDER, if he can't change it !!

And then, Lalaji would be the same as Babuji ... making it up in his own name!!

Don ...

Anonymous said...

Hi don,

you have said The darkies were the slaves (labourers) brought from Africa and the more southern lattitudes.

this is not true, every indian is indigenous to that region, india was never in business of slave trading throughout her 20,000 yrs of known history.

I had read a similar comment from one of the zombie in your blog, but that is an absolute non-sense.

This is just for the records.

Rajan,

My spiritual way is my private matter, and i do not intent to discuss my private faith in public.

if i follow some guru or cult, that again is my private matter...

if zombies of sahaj marg keep their faith to themselves and do not act like paid missionaries, or a drone of Amway, I would have had no problem with them, there are many zombies around the globe, i do not go on exposing them all, i do expose that what i have first hand experience.

Regards
Shashwat

4d-Don said...

Hi Shashwat...

There seems to be alot of information on the NET regarding Slavery in India, specially in Medieval times by Muslim Slave Traders ... and historically!

See here for a few sites on the WEB:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_India

and here:

http://www.suite101.com/content/slavery-in-ancient-india-a33072


Don...

4d-Don said...

Here is an "anonymous" comment left on one of my earliest blogs: Meditators Beware! The (not so) Natural Path!!

http://4d-don.blogspot.com/2005/11/meditators-beware-not-so-natural-path.html


Anonymous said...

You mentioned at http://sumayyaahmad.blogspot.com/2006/06/small-worries-big-concerns.html that you have been trying to change the WIKIPEDIA links http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahaj_Marg and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shri_Ram_Chandra_Mission and the external links on those sites to expose the lie.

Please Please do this as soon as possible because one of my close friends was trapped into it and became zombie. I tried to wake up him, but no use. If you can expose this on WIKIPEDIA, at least so many other people can be survived.

23 November, 2010 10:58:00 AM PST

Anonymous said...

Don,

When I want dynamics you are talking about statistics. Your expression about Lalaji and Babuji is most logical and theatrical. You did not answer my question and you are beating about the bush. My question is ' were you in the company of Babuji Maharj ?'. did you take one sitting from Babuji ? Please answer these questions with out any deviation.

With kind Regards.

4d-Don said...

Hi Rajan...

This blog is not for you to use as you wish, and specially this article is about comments from Frank regarding Basbuji and Chari and their focus on "complexion, cut and height" when chosing a wife for his Babuji's son, Umesh ... We call that racism, and contrary to the teachings of "universality" of their "ism" (religion?). This article is not about Shashwat, Rajan and Don ... If you want an interview with me, you can book it on one of your sites ... if you have one... I seriously don't think that anyone cares about what we have done in our life ... we are discussing "content" not trying to start a "gossip site" ...

Please stick to the subject at hand ... diversion tactics and attacking the messenger is what the fans of politicos, entertainers and the religious do when their idols are caught with their pants down or their hands in the cookie jar ...

Beside, you have already questionned me on these topics ... re-read your own interviews and/or your interrogations, if you need to know ...

Don....

Anonymous said...

Thank you Mr.Don, I shall take leave from you. My mission is not reformation but Realization.

I wish you all the best for your spiritual service to humanity.

Regards.

4d-Don said...

This comment was sent to my blog:

Meditators Beware! The (not-so) Natural Path!!

http://4d-don.blogspot.com/2005/11/meditators-beware-not-so-natural-path.html

Anonymous said...

Please forward all this cult info to info@tv9.net so that TV9 can warn the people about this cult activities in India by broadcasting the program on cults and how they are deceiving the people with free meditation.

24 November, 2010 9:18:00 AM PST

Anonymous said...

Hi Don,

I read those article and did not find any mention of slaves being imported from Sudan to India, Muslims by the virtue of being slightly in-human tendency did forced people into slavery, which is known, and is not Indian culture, Islam has Arabic influence from A to Z.

Sahaj marg also has its roots in Islam, they do not present the correct picture in front of people, but thats our job, to expose their lie's.

Regards
Shashwat