Exchange with Navneet Kumar with Christian, Alexis et al

Exchange with Navneet by Christian, Alexis and others on Tell Me Truth India Blog:
http://tmtindia.blogspot.com/2007/01/justice-should-be-for-all-not-only-for.html

The Truth will set us Free

March 2, 2007 12:13 PM

Alexis said...

Dear Navneet,
You said you have a copy of minutes of General Body nomination of Shri Umesh Chandra Saxena in 1984 February the 7.
I think it would be a good idea to publish them on your website, with the other letters.
Just 2 questions :
- What was the role of SP Srivastava between 1983 and 1994 ? Who were in the General Body in 1984 ?
- You didn't tell anything about the circumstances of unnatural death of your father. Could you tell us a little bit more ?
Thanks a lot
Alexis Mielkarski

March 3, 2007 5:41 PM

Navneet said...

Dear Alexis Mielkarski

If you see the last letter of Babuji it clarifies the role of Dr S.P. Srivastava and other 3 people. As my father was instructed not to actively involve till the true disciple only stay in this mission with him to avoid the repetation of history.

Hence Dr. S.P. Srivastava was heading the society as President so that the dispute could be solved and Chari stops his claim. It is only in 1987 when Chari again got up and attacked the Ashram with few of his followers asking to make him the President. the then ADministrative Authorities asked him to leve the town within 15 minutes and Section 398 was put on him and was barred from entring the district boundaries. Copy of the same is also with us. He has never again attemted to visit Shahjahanpur since then.

As far as my father's death is concerned. He was hale & hearty and we were busy with my younger brother's marriage celebrations.
He just had tea in the Ashram given by one of our disciples. felt uneasy and vomitted blood. he tried to control himself and the doctor was called. He said it is case of poison in blood. but he recovered by next morning and the doctor advised him to take a bottle of blood when he reaches Delhi.

He attended the engagement ceremony of my brother on the next day. He was walking but slightly weak because of loss of blood.

We came to Delhi and in the morning at 9:30 AM we took him to a hospital for a bottle of blood. The doctor gave Anaesthesia to him. We objected to it stating that for giving blood we don't give Anaesthesia. Doctor asked nurse to to push my mother out of the room. My father was talking just before the anaesthesia.

At 3:00 PM we came to know that my father had expired. Best part is I did not give this news to my motherfor about 1/2 hour but I received a call from Shahjahanpur that one of Chari's close aid in Shahjahanpur has rung the ashram and said that Sh. Umesh Chandra is no more.

I wondered that his news of death was known only to the doctor, nuse and me how could the news travel to Chari's camp. Later when I broke the news to my mother she cried saying that Chari has succeeded in killing him. When I asked for detail later came to know that about 15 days back one person had overheard Chari's now Secretary saying that we will have to first kill Umesh then his youngest son. because he is an advocate. He also said that they were talking of some doctor who would help them. My father took it lightly.

After relieving my father. The doctor was asked to do postmortem he refused stating no post mortem can be done. Take the body away. My mother was crying too much so we took the body back to our home.

To our surprise Chari's aides were there at our house within 1 hr of our bringing my father's body. When no one has any contacts or even meet them ever.

When we asked the doctor to give a certificate about his death. The doctor writes he was brought to the hospital with no pulse. How can a man go by lift after walking and sitting Chair after Doctor asked him to sit and tell doctor that he just needs a bottle of blood fast so that he could go back home and answers to doctor that he is just feeling weak and will go back home and be alright.

We then ask the hospital to give records of what was the treatment given to my father for just abour 4 hours that he died even when came walking. The Hospital staff refused to hand over the file to us. Which should be given to us as per law.

We later tried to enquire through a doctor to see the file inside the hospital and tell us about the treatment. Doctor of that hospital said that that particular file is not there all other file copies are there. he also said that he had enquired about it from others. he was told that you will not get that particular file. Dont talk about it till things settle.

Hope now every thing is clear. None of the above incident is manipulated it is a true story but nobody pays heed because of money, and Administrative powers etc. supporting him.

Regards

Navneet

March 4, 2007 6:12 PM

Anonymous said...

Dear Navneet,

Do you know under what circumstances Shri Parthasarathi Rajagopalachari obtained the ring (which had several different stones) which Babuji customarily wore?

Thank you. J.

March 4, 2007 10:44 PM

Navneet said...

Dear J

I don't know. But I just know one thing that the rings which Babuji wore were all distributed amongst his sons not Chari. Iwas present in Shahjahanpur when Babuji's Trunk & Box was opened.

It doesn't deter from the fact above.

Regards

Navneet

March 5, 2007 10:37 AM

Anonymous said...

Hi Navneet,

I'm Christian, you probably know me from my discussions about SRCMtm and Chari, on diverse blogs and from my own blog.

Can you tell me something to convince me about you?

I know Br. Narayana who works for Babuji through the ISRC.
Ss. Kasturi has also continued the work alone.
I consider these two persons as highly honnest.
Why are they not working with you?

I have thought about this affair a lot.
When I joined the SRCMtm at the end of the 80s, it happened that I also met dissidents by the same time, and from the begining of my practice, I was being connected to both clans and engaged mentally in this sordid story.

I have a high respect for your Grand-father, though I refuse to approach spirituality with the Indian attitude consisting in devoting to a man, furthermore dead, so long as I have not a direct inner relation built proving that I am not trapped in the play of imaginary and myths created by others, eventually the pathology of others.
No one is to interfere in between.

I was really upset to see how people use Babuji's name to propagate myths about him.
I made it my duty to analyse inconsistencies showing where we are drifting in a myth, where we are in spirituality - which is a mystery in itself.

All of us are trying to cover this mystery with explanations, when Babuji did his best to uncover it and offer it to human kind.
He let a teaching showing us how to uncover this mystery in ourselves to offer it to human kind, and so on.
However, you all try to stop this propagation process by creating an obnubilation of abhyasis on Babuji instead of god's realization.
For me, it is like creating a new religion.

The task I was involved in is difficult, and I received very little help.
It also put me in a difficult situation with people from the ISRC, who do want to believe.
Finally, I decided to let it go, for it has become obvious that no one can go against the flow of history.
A new religion is being forged.
It is probably all humanity could grasp from this new attempt of divinity to actualize itself in our species.

Babuji never wanted him to be deified by people from what I can read in his books, and loved as an idol - did he?
He wanted people to realize god.

He said that religion divides when spirituality unites, but we observe much division in his lineage.
Is it possible that this division results from a manipulation that you attribute to the clan of Chari, but which would involve other organisations?

You say you were poisonned, your father was, and your grand-father was, and there was a murder attempt on your brother's life.
On the other side, Chari says that he was poisoned and he probably fears for his life considering the security around him.
Spiritual people are not murderers, and I do not see Chari being involved in this kind of action.
Who could have interest in doing so?

I am convinced that you are manipulated on both sides or clans, against each other.
My feeling is that the 3 letters you produced on the website of the srcm shahjahanpur are all fakes, including yours.

Have you considered this possibility seriously?

There were surely few ideas or problems in Babuji's teaching causing division in brotherhood and aspiration for power, but it can't be enough to create this mess, or people are completely crazy.
As it seems they are not, as they seem to be sincere, I am now considering another option: manipulation from outside.

Is it something that you already thought about?

March 5, 2007 11:31 AM

Navneet said...

Dear Anonymous (Christian)

As far as you say Br. Narayana and Ss. Kasturi are highly honest. I don't refute the fact completely. As far Ss. Aksturi is concerned she was the one who in India said that Chari is the successor way back in 1984 which created this divide. She was all praises for Chari till late about Year 2000. It is only when Chari's Aides through her belongings out of Vizag Ashram and told her not to come back then she became against Chari.

Later my father met Ss. Kasturi asking her to come back to the original SRCM. She agreed but with a condition that she should be given the same place as that given by Babuji and that she would only then ask her followers to come along with her. My father said that she is welcome but, with a condition that there can be only one GURU and that is Babuji Maharaj and we don't wan't any more divisions in the system hence we would not allow anyone to propogate that they are their abhyasis. An abhyasi of SRCM should be only follower of one guru that is Babuji, which is in line with the orders of his Guru which is clearly mentioned in the Diary written by Babuji. She said that she will think it over.

As far as Br. Narayan is considered. He did meet my father way back in the late 90's and agred to support us then once the Supreme Court decides. I don't know his stance as of now.

I can only say that I am acting as per the wish of my master that he shall remain the only MAster till the end and I am no Guru. But, surely can make you feel the same transmission (which I hope you consider or have felt by now and is the synonimity of basis of spiritual elevation.) which was felt, during Babuji's time. Only experience proves.

Once again, Only experience of the true spiritual transmission is a test of presence. People following Babuji even after his physical demise know the best as to how they have had the feelings and presence of babuji. There is a saying in India that You can't tell the taste of anything unless you have tasted one.

It is only your materialistic approach which is making you think that you can't devote to man who is death. You are proving that all your forefathers wasted their time in Church, and you are saying against all spiritual & religious leaders which is false. Do not take this as an explanation that we are creating a religion. No we are not and we do agree that religion divides and spirituality unites.

The path of spirituality you also agree was given by Babuji in SRCM for the benefit of mankind. So what is wrong in abiding by his path and stating that he is the GURU and person who has shown us the path. As Prophet Mohammed had shown for a religion and as Gautam Buddha ji had shown for Budhism.

I hope that you will understand the above explanation if you are whee bit spiritual and understand that Life and death are materialistic and spirituality never dies. Hence the person who has shown us this path of spirituality too always remains a Guru. Even if you were truly devoted to Babuji's path you shouldn't have questioned his and his master's directions as a true seeker.

It does not matter to us whether you decide to take the right path or not. We are only doing our duty to guide people to the right & wrong and they are to decide their own fate.

I really don't know of the inconsistencies you are talking about may be these are there because you have still not completely got associated with the true follower who till date only believes in Babuji and his teachings. It may have cropped up because of your you have still not decided to follow a path and are detouring from the first principle of spirituality i.e. think from your heart not your mind. heart is the centre of spirituality. the moment yo start questioning and thinking here and there there is lack of faith in one particular path. Which is the root cause of all this misappropriations of your mind.

We still say follow what Babuji laid down and taught and practice what you are supposed to for your personal spiritual upliftment.

Please make sure that all the explanation is not to forge a new religion but to forge that all human irerespective of their religion, caste, creed, colour and sex have to follw the spiritual upliftment for their progress.

You have also misunderstood tha division in his lineage. Let me clear that we are against the divisions and we still say that Babuji is the oonly GURU and shall remain till the end of this world. Hence we are against anybody calling himself or herself as Master or a Sub-Guru aor demi-Guru. We are also preaching undivided SRCM who believe in only one GURU the founder alone.

Now the question of murder and last letters of Babuji being fake. You have joined in late 80s We also confirmed on various facts written in the last letter. If there are people around you who had attended the Paris function Ask them if it is false that Chari was proclaiming to be next president. Note same has been written in the letter. The letter also has corrections by hand. Babuji, i know you would not know had a peculiarity in his handwriting which is clearly evident from the letter.

As far as the letter of Nomination of my father and his sons is concerned try and connect the last letter with it and try and compare the words so written in the letters. Also do not forget the fact that Babuji never wrote anything about the mission without his Guru's name and directions too. Also do not forget that Babuji used to work in court and a person adept with law will always write in legal accent which the letter of my father's nomination clearly depicts. And the third letter we are saying is a forged one by Chari and am with you. as the content are no one near to the above stated facts.

If Babuji is gone physically, so does his son and his grandsons opposing Chari then no one opposes Chari as President. Is this reason not good enough to remain a GURU for Chari. But fact remains that when there are no takers as per the constitution and bye laws of the Trust it stands dissolved as per law. It will also not go in hands of culprits. I know my life is in Danger by writing all this but I don't want to budge away from the world like a hyena (who attacks and plays tactics) but wan't to die a lion's death.

Chari's poisoning is all crap. he has not stayed in Ashram after Babuji's funeral. Now it is more than 20 years now. He is trying to take sympathy after we put forward this last letter of Babuji. and in this shelter he and is his aides are playing all the games. You will not believe it because none of your family mambers have faced death in this fashion.

Do not forget that any society or organization works by Byelaws and rules laid down in the constitution. Which was laid down Way back in 1945 when I suppose no one of you or for instance even me were the followers of Babuji. It is very clear in it that as per Section 3a & 4b of the same President has to be in Direct line of succession only. At that time and even todat direct line of succession means genetic son and then his son.

Have ever considered that Spirituality is science. You also would agree that we are made of particles and electrons too. which align in aparticular direction. Transmission is magnetic in nature as it is a flow of energy. It is this energy which aligns us towards spiritual goal. Now when Babuji established this mission and was the one who gave the system for others to follow. He had his particles and electrons always aligned to spirituality.

rest is for you people to analyze as to who is the best representative of such a being. This fact has been aptly told by his Guru in his diaries. You just need to correlate things with science of spirituality.

There is saying. that A cat closes his eyes and drinks milk thinking that no one is seeing it drink. but the fact will remain that the milk has been drunk. So if you don't believe on the facts it is your problem not the world around.

Rest is for you to decide from Heart not your Head.

Regards

Navneet

March 5, 2007 12:53 PM

Alexis said...

Dear Navneet,

I understand your anger if Chari's group is responsible for all you said.

But, much of us weren't in the SRCM in 1983-84, it makes a long time. Like you say , Kasturi was for Chari at this time. KC Narayana said us that the letter of your father was a forgery. He said Chari was president but not spiritual representative.
All these people are serious. Who to believe ?
For understanding and choose, the history of facts should be known, all the history must be known. I thus think that it would be necessary to publish the copy of the minutes of the decision and the list of people who took part of it.
I'm really sad for all of your family.
Regards
Alexis

March 5, 2007 4:05 PM

Anonymous said...

"Only experience of the true spiritual transmission is a test of presence."
Presence of what? A ghost? Or god?
I'm sorry to be provocative, but even your Grand-Father would have said that the true master is one and one only, and it is god.
What you say can only be a forgery, which author is not Babuji.

"It is only your materialistic approach which is making you think that you can't devote to man who is death."
You meant: "It is only your materialistic approach which is making you think that you can't devote to man".
Actually, because my approach is not materialistic, I am not looking to devote to man, but to god.
This is where I had a problem with Chari, and this is where I have a problem with Babuji's followers.
I do not know if you are conscious of this fact, but you are closing the doors to people like me.
Didn't Babuji showed the way to god? Did he showed the way to idolatry for himself?
If it was so, it would be completely inconsistent with what he said concerning Indian gurus.

"So what is wrong in abiding by his path and stating that he is the GURU and person who has shown us the path."
Absolutely nothing, and I never said anything against this fact.
I said that I was feeling very uncomfortable with the power sickness of the ones and the others, whether they look power for themselves openly as Chari, or more indirectly as those claiming that Babuji is god.
He was absolutely honest by saying that no one can usurpate this position.

"Hence the person who has shown us this path of spirituality too always remains a Guru."
Why not?
He came to show a living path, not to add one more religion to the burdened humanity.
Therefore, he could never whish this.
Only those who wanted to use his name to get a power position have interest in this.
I may be wrong, as everyone, but after thinking again and again, I could find no other conclusion, and after reading you, I have no information to see things differently.
If it is to place Babuji at the position of god, why not to consider god directly?
If it is to get a guide, even Babuji said that we need an incarnated guide, and he explained why.
However he is dead now, and as we have seen since then, every body has taken a different position, making the deads say and order what was in agreement with the point of view of the ones and the others.
Finally, it resulted in division, implying that either the dead who gives orders from above is inconsistent, or that those who claim to receive orders from above are impostors taking their imaginary as intercommunications.

"Even if you were truly devoted to Babuji's path you shouldn't have questioned his and his master's directions as a true seeker."
I don't know how many times I have heard that.
This is manipulative and dishonest.
I can understand that you may whish to take mental control over me, but this is highly materialistic behavior, isn't it?
Furthermore, it is not bringing any answer to my questions, nor helping me to reach god.
It just means: you want to prove that you are a spiritual aspirant? Shut up.

"It does not matter to us whether you decide to take the right path or not."
Possibly because you do not know what love is?
Otherwise you would feel concerned.

"We are only doing our duty to guide people to the right & wrong and they are to decide their own fate."
To guide?
If only I was sure it is not to misguide, as I have experienced with your colleague Chari, I would be more confident in Indian gurus and would accept their supervision more easily.
But as soon as we start asking questions, we only discover their ignorance and the protective reaction is always the same.
This is a sad state.

"think from your heart not your mind. heart is the centre of spirituality."
I do not think it is possible to think with the heart.
As you say, heart is the center of spirituality, not of thought.
Maybe you mean: feel with your heart?
Which would be ok.
Or Indian people and Occidental use different centers for doing the same?

"the moment yo start questioning and thinking here and there there is lack of faith in one particular path."
Faith is only for god.
A path is a path, i.e. a way to god, and following it only implies the need to have faith in god.
If I was not faithful, I would still be in the SRCMtm following the "path" stupidly.
Stupidly, that's it, so that the "gurus" are never confronted to their ignorance by their stupid followers.

"We still say follow what Babuji laid down and taught and practice what you are supposed to for your personal spiritual upliftment."
I do.

"You have also misunderstood tha division in his lineage. Let me clear that we are against the divisions and we still say that Babuji is the oonly GURU and shall remain till the end of this world. Hence we are against anybody calling himself or herself as Master or a Sub-Guru aor demi-Guru. We are also preaching undivided SRCM who believe in only one GURU the founder alone."
I have understood your point of view, and explained mine above.
By making these statements, you have made an attempt to stop the flow of Nature.
That is why division is arising, as a rock in the the river will divide its flow, and in its time finally be dissolved through ages, or taken away by the flow of the river.
You are reducing Babuji's teaching to the flow of the river, trying to control it, when Babuji's teaching was concerned with water, whatever its form.

"Ask them if it is false that Chari was proclaiming to be next president. Note same has been written in the letter. The letter also has corrections by hand. Babuji, i know you would not know had a peculiarity in his handwriting which is clearly evident from the letter."
Let's suppose it is the case.
It means that Chari has killed his beloved according to you.
But isn't it possible that someone took advantage of the situation and used Chari's greed for social power to cover his crime?

"Also do not forget the fact that Babuji never wrote anything about the mission without his Guru's name and directions too."
I agree with you.

"do not forget that Babuji used to work in court and a person adept with law will always write in legal accent which the letter of my father's nomination clearly depicts."
However, it is not the way he wrote his spiritual journal or his books.
Linking this to your precedent quote, I think that the secret letter is a fake.
Lalaji was everything for your Grand-Father.
This letter is just revealing a total lack of faith of Babuji in Lalaji and god, and that's why I consider it can't be from him.
Somebody tried to imitate him into something plausible knowing what you have mentionned, resulting in an aberration.

"And the third letter we are saying is a forged one by Chari and am with you. as the content are no one near to the above stated facts."
Yes, this was stupid, but as you know for guiding people in spirituality, the human soul is also dark.

"If Babuji is gone physically, so does his son and his grandsons opposing Chari then no one opposes Chari as President."
Do you mean they will try to kill all those people questionning Chari with blogs?
I have another theory - see below.

"Is this reason not good enough to remain a GURU for Chari."
I ask you to consider it again: who may have a less visible, long term advantage in this fight?
Chari is old and will probably die soon, so this is not a good argument.
Even Chari might be manipulated, I hope that you have considered this possibility also.
Chari is very badly surrounded.
It is possible that some of his nearest disciples be alleged to another organisation/ideology.

"But fact remains that when there are no takers as per the constitution and bye laws of the Trust it stands dissolved as per law."
This is possibly what they want.
Babuji's teaching is not preserved intact anymore with Chari, who has already adapted it and drifted it.
This causes its failure, and it is enough to keep the SRCMtm alive.
Indeed, his SRCM is not really a menace anymore, for it is misleading people now.
What if?
What if god was a secret not to be revealed to human kind?
Do you think that secret societies would let the secret of god flow out of their control, eventually resulting in making humankind awake and conscious?
This could endanger the globalized organisation they are building since centuries, if not millenia, using religions as a tool for spreading their agenda.
By claiming what your Grand-Father claimed and tried to reveal it to the world in the beginning of the 70s, your Grand-Father came to play in the garden of the powerful guys, and surely, he paid for this.
Consider when the murder attempts on him did started.
My life may also be in danger for writting this, and you have to pray and pray that reality be revealed to you, for it is surely far more complicated than it seems to be.
Powerful people control the world and they may consider the teaching of your Grand-Father as an artefact in their plan.
If Chari did what he did, knowing how rotten the world is, having the SRCMtm drift as it did, he might have done this to protect the people he loved from being murdered.
What if he plays the rules that were imposed to him as if he was ignoring everything, to save what can be?
Consider this possibility seriously.
I was very upset after Chari when I resigned last year, but since, I reconsidered what I felt coming from him by that moment.
I first interpreted it as fear of being exposed, but now I understand that he also has a tremendous pression coming from elsewhere.
He may not do what he wants, but keep it a secret and just let people target him as if he was the only responsible guy for drifts and murders.

"rest is for you people to analyze as to who is the best representative of such a being."
This contradicts your statement about having Babuji as the only one guru for ever.

"A cat closes his eyes and drinks milk thinking that no one is seeing it drink."
My point of view is that the cat enjoys his milk, therefore closes his eyes.
This saying is clearly anthropocentrism, giving to the cat thoughts that he can't have.
This is imaginary.
Spirituality can't be imaginary, but the teaching of these so-called gurus is usually mixing both, resulting into a crap.

"So if you don't believe on the facts it is your problem not the world around."
One is to believe in god only, not in facts.
Facts are what they are, and I try to see them as they really are, instead of fitting them to my imaginary as most of people do.

Navneet, I am sorry for what your familly has been through and continues to undergo.
I whish you good things.
Thanks for this discussion.

Christian

March 6, 2007 8:08 AM

Navneet said...

Dear Christian

It is sad to note that you did not take my letter in a true essence and spirit. Maybe I thought you were of the know how of what real transmission was at the time of Babuji. In your first para you have started with Ghost and God. I never meant what you feel in the transmission I only meant that the intensity and the subtleness of transmission which was present during Babuji's era is still felt by people with us. who had been associated since Babuji's physical presence.

Moreover, My Grandfather grandfather was clear of the of the differences between Master and God. And it is sorry to note that you have still not gathered the meanining of the master Master is just a Guide to take you to the path of God realization by showing a path towards the god. He also considered Lalaji as his master and not God as his master even after lalaji's physical demise.

Word devoted does not only mean being devoted to god alone. We use the word devoted followers isn't it. What does it connote does it connote only to GOD or does it also convey being devoted to GURU. I don't know how much you will buy this statement 'As a human you should first learn to be devoted to a human who is showing you the path of devotion to the Ulltimate.' Only then you can be a true devotee. If you known of a path directly to God and have direct interface with God like a physical being (what you desire)with no one to guide you. Then you would surely opt for that.

On Question which you may think over is "Is God Physically present and living to show you a path towards him." then why talk about Living Master too, You have his path, his teachings and the directions given by him to follow to reach the Ultimate isn't it. You may feel that I am trying to provocate you. No I am not I am still trying to answer you even after all the words you have used in your past two messages.

I never ever said that you take Babuji as God and Goal neither did babuji ever say so, but I personally have never seen God, but I have seen Babuji only, who has shown us the path. hence I am devoted to him as my Master who has shown me the path of GOD. Unless I don't have full faith and devotion in my Master how can I have devotion to that GOD.

Neither did I have written nor I mean that we place Babuji in place of GOD. But, I still say that we need to imbibe his characteristics of love, faith and devotion to his Master after which he could achieve GOD. Note that his Master was also not Physically present during his lifetime, esp. after forming this Trust, Shri Ram Chandra Mission.

No where is it written that a Spiritual Representative is a GURU. Yes in Diaries of Babuji it is clearly written that you shall be the only Master for times to come because of you work in this field of spirituality. Hence please do not construe that I an a spiritual Aspirant for GURU but yes I am a spiritual spirant like any other person but with a purpose so ordered by my Master, Babuji. You have grossly misunderstood the statement and has overanalyzed it. Maybe, this is uprooting from the fact that all are calling themselves as Guru of Living Master.

Babuji said Give me a chance to serve you. If you feel to continue continue. here too Babuji never insisted anyone to be his disciple and follow his given path. So who are we. Only mistake that may be I have done is to be a bit upright in saying "It does not matter to us whether you decide to take the right path or not. We are only doing our duty to guide people to the right & wrong and they are to decide their own fate."
It just meant that we are trying to tell you some of the facts which are known to us and are a cause of divide and path here does not mean spiritual Path. But means the right spiritual path. Babuji's followers path or Chari's SRCM TM or say ISRC or Ss Kasturi.

I hope you have understood right or wrong. Here as you told in your comment earlier to follow the true master i.e. God. Similarly follow Babuji (the founder of the system) or imposters is the key question.

Moreover Had I not been thinking of people around the world for their betterment, I would have contacted the world through this blog and nor would have answered to you even after you have used words like 'Shut up', imposter, forged for us. It feels bad when you try to be true to world but, the world is such that it never understands your feeling and trueness but always retaliates as you did. in last two messages.

I hope by now you might have realized and may perhaps be convinced that Faith is not only for GOD but also for the Master first as he is the one who has shown you the path of God irrespective of the fact that he is physically dead or alive. Like a mother will always be a mother till you breathe last, A guru shall always be the one who has shown you the ray of path to God realization. If you are not conviv\nced please do not react now take time to think over it and then reply.

To be on path of spirituality you should first be a good human to respect others esp. I never trusted words like 'Shut up' can be used for someone from his family. Then what is the difference between you and Chari. He also said in one of his statement. earlier during babuji's lifetime openly in front of many that BAbuji has gone mad. Please read the Autobiography of Babuji if you have the right version. he has stated very clearly. that even a dog of my Guru's house has to be given all respect.

One of the most important teavchings and basis of babuji is that you have to achieve spirituality even after living your material life. He has also written that Spirituality and materialism are the two wings of the bird and a balance has to be maintained.

Have you seen the society bye laws of Shri Ram Chandra Mission registered with the Registrar of Societies. For your information Most of the byelaws of our society had been written and redrafted by Babuji MAharaj himself. I hope you will appreciate that any Memoradum of a company or a society is a legal document written in legal language.

So when a person can write in legal language and when he is giving a nomination of a society which is legal entity he will have to write in a legal language.

Where is it written that a lawyer cannot write poetry or about sprituality or where is it that a doctor cannot understand or write about any occult sciences. For intsnce are you earning through spirituality or am I earning through spirituality . NO let it be sure neither of us are earning our bread and butter through spirituality. I am a Management Consultant since over 12 years now.

Understand from the saying of Babuji mentioned above you have to create a balance and man leads both life simultaneously spiritiual and material.

Lastly Facts are not for identifying a spiritual path but to make clear that in name of Babuji there are many a claimants but the facts only clarify that Babuji did not want it the way it is now.

Regards


Navneet

March 6, 2007 1:21 PM

Anonymous said...

Hi Navneet,

Thanks for your reply.

I have to clarify a point.
English is not my first language, and I see while reading you that it is not yours either.

When I wrote in my previous message "It just means: you want to prove that you are a spiritual aspirant? Shut up.", the "Shut up" was not some injunction addressed to you.
I was describing or analysing the implicit meaning of what you were saying to me.
It means that "shut up" is the sense of your previous message, for no questions have to be asked, just devotion, blindly and stupidly.

I'm not Indian, and I think that it is the main reason why it is difficult for me to understand the points you are all making as Babuji's followers.
The Indian mind is built on the religious background that prevails in your society.
I come from the west where the mind is built on another approach of reality, mainly questionning and validating step by step.

I have been confident once in an Indian guy that you know well, and this just resulted in messing my life completely.
So don't ask me to fall a second time.

Faith is something deep that drives life, not a mere thought that I could have in the surface of my mind.
Even if the Sahaj Marg was slamming the door to my face, this would not prevent me to aspire for god, for I can say that this is the central core of my life.

Let me explain how I understand the meaning of your message and you will tell me if I received it correctly.

Babuji was the person that created a synthesis of different spiritual paths, resulting in the Sahaj Marg system.
You consider him as the guide in this path because he is its founder.
His goal was to guide people to god, and you accept that god is the goal, not Babuji.
He has left behind, as part of the system, trained people to guide aspirants and make technical aspects like transmission available as a part of the path.
The goal of the path is also to preserve itself, therefore to create people able to transmit its technical aspects to the next generation.

My point is:
(1) my goal is god and he is the one whom I devote my life to
(2) my guide is the one who helps me reach this goal, i.e. a living trainer.

You admit that the living trainer is an essential point, otherwise there is no need of a path like Sahaj Marg: who would apply the technics?
Just devoting to Babuji would be enough and he would take care of everything from above - but it is not the case.

I spent some time without accessing to the services of a preceptor, and I may say from that experience that neither god, nor Babuji, helped me.
This is probably why Babuji was not taking Mahommet or Krishna or god as guides, but a living trainer.

This position does not put aside any respect and consideration for Babuji as the creator of this path.
All the analyses and criticisms I make when doing this work of uncovering reality from all the crapy imaginary that everyone has covered events with, is to try to bring back good sense so that the path to god becomes straight again, and not subjected to conditional devotion and idolatry to a person.

However, stating this is disturbing believers a lot.
When I say "good sense", people reply "dogma".
When I ask "spirituality" or "god", people answer "belief", "devotion", and "religion".
It seems impossible to have a rationale discussion with "disciples".

I know my questions are embarassing.
I also know my questions are good.
And I know why nobody hear them and take the time to go deep in them.
It is very sad because they drive to truth.

I wanted to clarify these points before eventually going further in the discussion, and I also hope it helps to break some prejudices.
I am sure that none of you understand my point of view.
For you, it is not conceivable to approach spirituality that way.
However, if spirituality is an approach of the reality, as your Grand-Father taught, it cannot be through dogma and imaginary.

I will continue to think about your last post.

Concerning the documents you are referring me to (Babuji's writtings), I surely have not the correct versions.
Can you mind some way to provide me these documents?

Finally, you did not react to the suggestion I was giving.
You may think about the idea of a manipulation of the clans to mask criminal activities of which none of you is responsible.
By the way, has Chari visited your ashram since "they" took it, and are you sure that it was stolen by the SRCMtm?

Kind regards - Christian

March 7, 2007 7:02 AM

Navneet said...

Dear Chritian

You have got things right now. Now to your question of living trainer. Yes it is important to keep the system alive through a live trainer. That is the reason why Babuji has appointed his spiritual representative. Spiritual representative means only as the word suggests representing some one. It does not mean replacing the person. Hence we say GURU cannot be replaced.

Spiritual Representative works with is team of Preceptors which are the trainers appointed by them. hence living Trainers are essential but not to be considered GURU. I hope the word Spiritual representative used till date by all loosely is clear by now.

Had there been a chance of GURU succeeding Babuji. Babuji in his Memorandum of society or in his books would have somewhere written about subsequent Gurus's and not representative only.

Yes, Ido agree that there is a chance that all criminal Activities taking place are by some people close to Chari but I cannot rule out his involvement completely. Because if he was true and not anywhere involved would have had the courtesy to say sorry on their behalf and would have asked them not to continue such activities further. Put yourself in his shoes. When you have come to know of activities done by your people, which you feel is wrong and if you are a good man you will not think twice in saying sorry for the same and also wouldn't you ask your people to stop carrying out such activities against your GURU's family.

Moreover, One more reality which came to us after the death of my Father is that there was a sister and brother who had come to my father stating that their father is an old abhyasi from Babuji's time and they would like to contribute in running of the Mission like his son & daughter would do. My father agreed and they were working since over 10 years. Even during my marriage things given to sisters of groom coming from the brides house was given to this female. My father also got dresses stitched for the two as he got stitched for my brothers during my marriage.

But, just after my father's death one of my brothers school mate met him, when my brother told about my father was President of SRCM at Shahjahanpur and died recently he then stated that he is following SRCMTm of Chari recalled that while he was in Hyderabad and went to pay a visit Chari with his parents about 5 months before my fathers death. He had seen one male and female coming from Shahjahanpur and when Chari was told about it he left the gathering for sometime and took them to a room nearby. This friend of my brother described the appearance of both male & female who had come.

My brother is given tea on the 14th Movember 2003 (about 11 days after my fathers death soon after accident of my brother in night) by this male which, my brother forgets to drink and in the morning one of our abhyasis find that the tea has turned blue and throws away the tea. Mind you the tea which my father drank 4 days before leaving his physical body and vomitted blood was also given by this male.

We got suspicious about the two. We also had seen a remarkable difference in approach of the two over the last few years. Later we found misappropriations done by the Male & female brother & sister.

Ths incident clearly states that Chari was meeting so called close disciple to my father. who my father considered to be fourth son and daughter.

Now a new message was shouted out by Chari's Secretary while beating my mother and Sh. Amresh Kumar ayear back that the male had poisoned Chari in the AShram.

To our knowledge Chari has not come to Ashram and this boy was only 17 years old in 1992 when he came to us and in 1983 this male would have been on 8 years old and he only came to Ashram with his parents only as a child.

Hence since we don't rake the poison issue before he came up with the new story of poison.

Chari's Aides had forcibly taken the Shahjahanpur Ashram way back in April beginning in last year. Now it is a year and Chari has not visited that ashram till now. (it is about a year now.)

You may decide based on the above incident and a reaction so expected from a good man atleast and moreso proclaimed spiritual man whether it is happening in his know how or not. Moreover if any deed is done by a person of a group the head of the group has to intervene and stop the illdeeds or elae he too seems to be party to the same.

I hoe your questions are answered as of now

Regards


Navneet

March 7, 2007 11:30 AM