Comments from the OTHER SIDE!

This anonymous comment was left on my blog (Spiritual Energy Generator).

Blogs are a "dictatorship"...Chari does not give me "equal time"... I don't have to give anyone equal time. I chose what I put out by my own criteria. I attempt to put Religion and so-called Spiritual Groups on trial by researching and compiling their WORDS and their ACTIONS as reported by either themselves and/or other Sources including but not limited to the mainstream MEDIA and then Showing them here. I am focussing on Sahaj Marg on this blog, for personal reasons, but you will also find some articles about other religions that I have come in contact with.

I include this (long) comment in an article so as to "SHOW" the spirituality that is the hallmark of Sahaj Marg and the Shri Ram Chandra Mission. Let the readers judge for themselves if they want to become part of any of these GANGS who are divided over and over again among themselves, in the name of the ONE (what they call GOD). They all claim that RELIGIONS DIVIDES and Spirituality UNITES, but refuse to be called "RELIGIONS" even though they DIVIDE and even though many families of their followers are also divided when one joins this group.

When the Rule of Law is finally applied to all equally, JUSTICE is shown as BLIND.
(one direction-From the State to the PEOPLE)
When Information is finally available to and from all, KNOWLEDGE is also BLIND. (two directions-From the Media Barons (the elite) to the People, and from the PEOPLE to the PEOPLE)

Welcome to the AGE OF THE INFONAUT. We are finally the MEDIA! OUR VOICE IS READ or HEARD! (notice the readership and the comments)

The article from the Comments:

Anonymous said...

“Some” Thoughts

Regarding Navneet Kumar Saxena

1. About his so-called “answers” and his announcements of “legal results“(judgements:)
There is no more doubt now anymore, that he answers only questions he likes to answer. Others he doesn’ t answer, he postpones answers or instead of answering he is “out of station“ for weeks, or even for months.
One example of the past
“Anonymous said .. recently I have observed that site [note: website of SRCM Shajahanpur] has removed lot of information... any specific reason for this action? July 1 4, 2007 7:06 PM”
“Navneet said ... [note: in answer to the comment above, of July 14, 2007] The site information was lost due to crash of server on which it was uploaded. They did not have the complete backup. It will be updated again in next two - three days. Navneet July 17, 2007 11:01 AM”
We never could see any upload done, not in the following days, not later.
And now - in May 2008 - again: A short appearance of Navneet Kumar Saxena - and then silence.

2. About his credibility
How old was Navneet Kumar Saxena when his grandfather died? Can he give any qualified first-hand informations at all? His actions undermine not only his own credibility, but even more damage the reputation of his grandfather.

3. About the question of the only Guru of SRCM Shajahanpur
3.1. “Anonymous said: ...... Shortly I saw Navneet Kumar Saxena and his father (incl. photos ect.) as "successor(s)" on http://www.srcmshahjahanpur.org.in/facts.html. It is removed now. ...... October 16, 2007 11:58 AM”
How can be there any successors, if Babuji is the only Guru? Navneet Kumar Saxena never clarified why the articles and the photos of the “successors” were removed and why he himself was not even mentioned anymore.
3.2. From his (now removed) website: http://www.srcmshahjahanpur.org.in/successor.html
“Spiritual Representative shall essentially have to be a lineal descendent of Babuji Maharaj as per the orders of Lalaji Maharaj (from Babuji’s diaries) and the registered Constitution, Byelaws of Shri Ram Chandra Mission established on 21st July 1945. ...”
He never published the original quotation.

4. About “spiritual business” and the blog “Tell Me Truth India”
The real blogger of “Tell Me Truth India - A Platform To Know Truth About Social Justice In India.” is Navneet Kumar Saxena. The blog is a fake because the nominal bloggers originally tried to make the observers believe, that the website is an independent site on which a Navneet Kumar Saxena - after a few others - published his comment. (How kinky is this if you want to tell truth(s)!) Later when Navneet Kumar Saxena had got a “good number” of supporting (?) people it seems he thought there will be no more need to hide that it is his blog.

He started his first “comment” with: “... We are RUNNING a spiritual society...January 18, 2007 12:17 PM” - Not only for this reason the whole thing sounds to the alien reader like “running a business” and therefore the fight seems to be a fight over money and property. The subject of the blog isn‘t ‘Social Justice in India’. It is about Navneet Kumar Saxena’s personal battle. Apparently, he thought a blog would be helpful for finding “friends”? - Inbetween a good number of seriously interested people turned away in disgust.
If there was at least one lesson we got in this mood battle “Shashwat” expressed it recently, when he asked to speak openly and not to hide behind the internet. - But who did? - Navneet Kumar Saxena? “Shashwat”? “4d-don”?

5.. About “court cases”
In the past Navneet Kumar Saxena spoke about “court cases“ (of SRCM), but only a case number (and only one) was given to the public and people could only read a “record of proceedings” but they neither saw the indictment nor the response to the accusations which led to the record. He made serious, but unproved accusations like a “forged nomination”, different cases of attempts on life or murder, illegal influence on the judicial authorities of the Indian state and so on. On November 17, 2007 6:46 PM he said “Meanwhile the order awaited from lower court has just been passed and a few days back. But, we are still awaiting the main Supreme Court Order.... ” - He never explained how a case can be in a lower and the supreme court at the same time - because it is not possible. He didn’t publish the (complete) order, although again and again he was asked to do so.
Same with the last published order: It isn’t a “final judgement” at all.
All this isn’t an honest procedure. Already out of the assumption that he and his family suffered in the argument from the economic disadvantage with the more prosperous SRCM Chennai he had the benevolence of many readers, at least in the beginning. It was his own fault if he has had it as far as a big part of the public is concerned.

6. Regarding “ ...Navneet released the judgement on Tell me Truth India on May 3,....” and “OPEN LETTER TO NAVNEET KUMAR SAXENA.............Please, answer our questions before you go out of station again!” Posted by 4d-Don at 5/09/2008 09:04:00 AM
Three weeks are gone now. - And no answer, no comment, no sign of of life by Navneet Kumar Saxena....

Even 4d-don doesn’t worry about Navneet’ s life anymore....
Readers are used to the procedure. - Spreading some news..... - and again out of station he is.....? - They are still waiting.

Regarding 4d-don and his website
1. About objective criticism, neutrality ect.
Sometimes it seems to be difficult for 4d-don to be aware of what is the natural outcome of his personal experiences and hurtings and what is (objective) legitimate criticism. In the past 4d-don was told by others several times that in contrary to his own fate there are united families by SRCM, and not everybody had bad experiences in denominational boarding schools. There are highly respected institutions. Often the admission has to be restricted or waiting lists have to be installed for the number of candidates.
Subjective representations on one side lead to polarisations and sometimes overreactions on the other side. At the end everybody only sees what they want to see. The discussion is not only useless then but not a discussion at all.
“Our World from Another Dimension” seems to be a blog for all people who need a platform for their articulations against one organization and one particular person. (Where is a trial of “Religion and Spirituality”?) - Mostly out of personal reasons. Very rarely objective attitudes are to be seen in the comments.
The feelings of abhyasis who seem to be helpless because they didn’t find another “platform” or didn’t find a way to be heard (in the right place) are comprehendable. And especially, the results of the research on the Sufi origins and their publication are worthy.
Nevertheless everybody should deal with facts, their interpretations and with comments (writing, publishing or even reading them and judging) carefully. And as long as services only aggree on court orders of defamation as a reason to remove particular statements the best is to ignore some harassers.
Thanks to Woodworm for his considered comment.
Woodworm said: “..I am very confused by the reactions and extreme positions in your blog to the latest Court judgment....It is entirely your judgement call on what opinion you want to consider and publish. But remember your credibility too is at stake.”
4d-don answered:”....I am not a lawyer so my "un-professional" opinion does not matter, I simply made the Court JUDGEMENT available to all, ....I don't have a record of the original case...” May 18, 2008 12:15:00 PDT PM
Although 4d-don’s intention to open a platform for everybody is praiseworthy, his attitude expressed in the comment above is too simple; and the assumption is that he himself knows it quite well. The procedure of Navneet Kumar Saxena is too obvious..
Same with the attitude of a few other regular commentators and especially of Shashwat. They insult others, call them names, but exspect relevant and objective comments from them. If 4d-don gives harrassers a platform it is his responsibility. And 4d-don himself thoughtlessly divides commentators in pro-...... and pro-...... If this is “A Test of our Democracy”!
Big headline: “Chari Charged with "criminal offense" (says Navneet)” ....Posted by 4d-Don at 5/05/2008 12:22:00 PM. - Shall again his “un-professional opinion “ not matter here, with the explanation that he simply makes Navneets unproved statements available to all? - The internet makes it possible, but it doesn’t make the behaviour honest.

Maybe, it is allowed to point out to the following article written by a judge.
[From http://technology.findlaw.com/articles/01118/010197.html. (Although the text is quite long it is quoted fully for the reason not to quote any sentences out of the context.)]

“The Unchecked World of the Internet
PR Newswire
By Judge Edward Fadeley,

CRESSWELL, Ore., Aug. 8 /PRNewswire/ -- The following is being issued by Judge Edward Fadeley, Retired Associate Justice of the Oregon Supreme Court:
Today's blogosphere is a veritable Wild West of verbal ambushes and shootouts, with very little fear of legal recourse to keep character assassination, defamation and dirty business tricks in check. It's an area of the law that desperately needs serious attention. Self-proclaimed "experts" and "journalists" abound on the Internet. "Web logs are the prized platform of an online lynch mob spouting liberty, but spewing lies, libel and invective," wrote Daniel Lyons in Forbes. Some 50 percent to 60 percent of blog attacks are now sponsored by business rivals, said a lawyer quoted in the story.

Ten years ago Congress passed a law requiring blog operators to protect the public by self-regulation. But many flout that responsibility and willingly post inaccurate messages that damage others.

That law has stifled the courts' rights to recover damages for unauthorized, negligent or dishonest use of Internet sites, including blogs. The guarantee that a person injured may use the courts to recover has existed in our culture since the century of the Magna Carta, more than 700 years ago.

But free-speech guarantees haven't previously protected libel, defamation or spoken-but-fraudulent activity. As the strong free-speech in the Oregon Constitution also provides, for example: "...but every person shall be responsible for the abuse of this right."

These legal holes exist while the cyber Wild West keeps getting bigger. There were about 10,000 Web sites in 1994, according to Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Technology Review. By 2000 that number soared to more than 25 million, and sites continue to grow exponentially.

Sometimes it is impossible to find sources for damaging language published on the Internet. An example is Apple vs. Doe where, in December 2004, Apple filed a lawsuit in Santa Clara County, California, against unnamed individuals who allegedly leaked information about a rumored new Apple product to several online news sites. Apple is seeking information from these "news" sites regarding identities of the sites' sources, and has subpoenaed Nfox.com, the email service provider for PowerPage, for email messages that could provide that information.

The courts must walk a fine line between a federal statute interpreted as creating immunity and the responsibility for the harm caused by libel.

Unfortunately, many innocent companies are being damaged by individuals out for profit or self-promotion. Even in instances where legitimate organizations have been seriously damaged by bloggers, it's difficult to counter unfounded attacks or to demand the actual sources, let alone seek the protections of the law.

It needs to be further examined to determine whether the protections in place for journalists are appropriate for bloggers, when they are not held to the same standards as the mainstream media. Journalists are held to account for what they say, whether or not they are quoting someone else. Unfortunately, the law has yet to create reasonable standards for the Internet and allows anyone to quote any source, with almost no liability for what they say.

The impact on innocent parties can be severe -- some companies have lost millions in stock value from an irate individual speaking anonymously as an expert on a blog soapbox, making statements intended to be read as fact, although they may be nothing more than the venom generated by a personal and perhaps unjustified grievance. Even when such statements are later corrected or balanced, misperceptions are hard to change after the first assertion of fact.

Commenting on a recent case in which Traffic-Power is suing Aaron Wall, host of the Blog SEOBook.com, for defamation and the disclosure of company trade secrets, Steve Rubel, VP of client services with Cooper Katz and Co., noted, "Right now the world of consumer-created media is a bit like the Wild West. Anything goes. Eventually, as cases are decided (in either direction) and clear precedents are set, online marketers and their legal teams will be in a better position to assess their potential downside risk in jumping into the blogosphere -- if any."

The courts aren't helping matters. For example, Landmark Education, an international training and development company that presents The Landmark Forum, dropped its lawsuit in New Jersey against Rick Ross, a self-professed "cult expert" who has built a career and reputation by quoting people's opinions on his Web site. Landmark Education terminated its lawsuit when, in an unrelated case, a New Jersey court significantly limited the kind of Internet behavior it would consider damages for. Court decisions like that make it even more difficult for companies to protect themselves against misinformation and false accusations.

Ross, who claims he's an expert on cults, religions and any organization he deems potentially harmful, should be held to a higher standard - not a lesser one. Rick Ross is a convicted felon with no degree of any kind. He says so on his own web site. His lack of professional qualifications doesn't stop Ross from freely labeling credible organizations in the personal development area "worthless" and "faked." While Ross acknowledges that Landmark Education is definitely not a cult, he nevertheless smears the company through innuendo. Ross also attacks John Gray, author of "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus," the Mormon Church and the practice of yoga.
Whether or not you endorse Gray or yoga, the law should protect their rights and demand journalistic standards and accountability.

It's high time to fill the gap in a system that allows defamation in the blogosphere to go unchecked. The harm can be wide-ranging and devastating. Until the law catches up with technology, innocent parties have little or no protection in the volatile world of cyberspace.
Judge Edward Fadeley is a retired associate justice of the Oregon Supreme Court.

2.About “apocalyptic” and truth(s)
“For those who claim that Shri Ram Chandra (California), is not "apocalyptic........", [Taken from a comment by Alexis on Elodies blog in France: Pour Que Vive Le Sahaj Marg Posted by 4d-Don at 4/20/2008 10:18:00 AM]
It seems to be a fact that it is at the eleventh hour for the Earth.. Nobody will deny this. If you think in “spiritual patterns” that everything, even earthquakes, is only an outcome in the material world then nothing special apocalyptic is in the quotation of SRCM (see: original comment).
But if you judge the article in another aspect you will be surprised.
“....here is an excerpt from Chari's book, "He, the Hookah and Me"........
In the Book the "Hookah"..... [note: Chariji said:]’....And I still get messages like that. In the most recent message, he [note: Babuji] asked me, he told me, he urged me to make sure that our preceptors, our abhyasis were absolutely progressing........ He said: "Make sure that our abhyasis are progressing......” ’ ” Posted by 4d-Don at 4/20/2008 10:18:00 AM [The problem is, there isn’t any proper reference (author, title. year, page.....)].
The question is: Did this French lady get t h e s e messages or Chariji himself? -
Only he who can read it in its context can make the correct interpretation.
But even then it will be difficult probably. To take up again Elodie’s comment about the description of Babuji’s visits at Lalaji’s house you have to consider that it is said that some people go for Truth (know Truth); and for them truth(s) are said not to be of much significance. If you read Gandhi’s autobiography it seems that he was very interested in being truthful even in small things. People not to be truthful in all matters (while others are) can become a problem for societies at least because for their functioning they need some -basic- ethics shared by all.
Look at the following quotation of a newspaper article (interview) (The quotation is not made to breed hate or for spreading prejudicies. And the reader is earnestly asked not to think the intention behind this comment is to hurt Indian people.)
“....Travelling through India Hartz was faszinated by a philosopher, who explained the relation of the Indians to lying.
‘He couldn’t calm down anymore.’
‘Of what type is the relation of Indians to lying?’
‘They don’t have any relation to it.’
[“DIE ZEIT”, 9/2006 DOSSIER “We Were Heroes”]
Maybe, similar to the poverty of Indians as an outcome of the priority given by Hinduism to inward orientation (and minor importance of materialism, at least in comparision to Western countries) over centuries it might also be the result of the importance given to the Search for Truth, that truth(s) have a minor meaning.
But as we see with Hartz. There is a high risk that people misinterpret philosophers and live neither according to truths, nor Truth. They are simple liars.

3. About the importance given to some “facts”
Big Headline “Thursday, May 08, 2008 Chari is Angry with the Supreme Court Judgement! “. The article starts: “Navneet released the judgement on Tell me Truth India on May 3, and Chari has cancelled most of his travels in Europe at the same date. We are told that it was not for health reasons. Should we see a causal link between the judgement and the cancellation of Chari's trip?....”
Better not! Because if you start thinking in patterns of “causality” like this you not only give Navneet’s fight too much importance but simply start misinterpreting what happens in the world.

3. Addition
1. to the article “Monday, May 26 2008 The Enemies of Spirituality? “ (Taken from Elodie' s blog (France) Posted by 4d-Don at 5/26/2008 11:24:00 AM
Writing a correct comment to the new article. would need a lot of time which not everybody has. But a few thougths (which probably 4d-don and a few others again will put into their pro.../pro.... scheme).
Opposites like
This “Nursery/University Level”
“It is gross/subtile”
“Based on fear and temptation/Love and Universal Brotherhood” an so on
are very debatable, arrogant and not true, because in religion there is spirituality. Nobody can deny that there were great mystics in all religions (and outside religions, too). But it is also true, that these mystics mostly were not accepted by the religious institutions. This is so until today. (There are living examples.)
But there are mistakes in Elodies comment.
It was Babuji who introduced the idea of “Where religion ends, spirituality begins.” and of “Religion is considered to be the kindergarten” ect. - Why does she not blame Babuji?”
And Elodies comment seems to be written with not much consideration. It is human and can happen, although there are parts in Elodie‘s comment, where she seems to be nearly furious and she should not allow herself to publish writings like this. (At least then she has to accept mistakes done by others,too. Nobody is perfect, even Babuji wasn‘t, as everybody can see.)
If she targets the .."self appointed" GURU” then she points out directly to a lack of Babuji; nobody appointed Babuji (only Lalaji in Babuji’s dream, which you may believe - or not). Chariji at least can refer to Kasturi, who never withdrew her affirmation about the fact that Babuji declared Chariji to be the one who should succeed Babuji as the President of the Mission.
If Chariji is “in Court with the Family of the FOUNDER, Babuji“ it seems that Babuji‘s family started the court proceedings (and their actions and reasons up to now are quite debatable).
And if Elodie writes “...I have abandoned nothing, I never relinquished......” and “...I abandoned the Mission.” she herself has to judge the (in-)consistence of her words, which seems to have its reason in an acting in the heat of the moment.
What is wrong with the sentences “Every religion talks of ‘one God’ but states that only their God is the best.”?
And what is the way out of the situation?
And the last: Her quotations :“...in a book published by his MISSION.....”- Readers need a proper reference, everything else is disputable.

Has Elodie ever tried to talk to Chariji, to Kasturi about the matter?

4d-don - in which way does he judge the comments, the importance of the them for the given subject of his blog; how does he make the decision about the publication on his blog?
What are his intentions?

2. article of Tuesday, May 27, 2008 “Spiritual Energy Generator” Posted by 4d-Don at 5/27/2008 12:22:00
Why don’t you simply take a drug? - Are you a yogi then?
This isn’t about “spirituality”. This is fishing in troubled waters.

3. How some people talk in this circle doesn’t show love as the force of their actions. - If you want to discuss “spirituality” live it and be an model.
Please, stop all this!

[Note: permission for publicaton only for the complete comment]